tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post6049415007646169956..comments2024-01-22T09:45:29.790+01:00Comments on Racing Rules of Sailing - Look to Windward: HEAR YEE, HEAR YEE, ... AMORITA vs SUMURUNJoshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-76920559271974089632013-07-04T11:50:09.238+02:002013-07-04T11:50:09.238+02:00I know for a fact that insurance companies do not ...I know for a fact that insurance companies do not always settle, especially if there are personal injuriesAnte Mazalin | SailingEurope Grouphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08132094036013133248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-42491478429837462192011-06-16T21:54:13.205+02:002011-06-16T21:54:13.205+02:00Hey...
I was trying to post this, but I can't...Hey...<br /><br />I was trying to post this, but I can't seem to get it to work.<br /><br />I thought now that it is all said and done, you and other readers may want to learn what REALLY took place.<br /><br /><br />All of the details of the protest, appeals, lawsuit, etc.. are all posted:<br /><br />http://www.ny30.org/amorita_documentation.htm<br /><br />Photos can also be found:<br /><br />http://www.ny30.org/amorita_accident.htm<br /><br />I thought you might find it interesting, especially the quantity of rules discussions and rulings.<br /><br />BillBillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-28602684007686583442011-06-16T18:46:03.567+02:002011-06-16T18:46:03.567+02:00To all those that wondered what really happened an...To all those that wondered what really happened and how this ended up in court, you can now read it for yourself. All of the photographs, protests, decisions, and legal documents can be found on www.NY30.org -- just follow the trail to the "fleet" -- then to "Amorita / NY-9", then to Amorita's site.<br /><br />Almost 4 years to the day -- Amorita will be sailing again, hitting the water just in time for the WoodenBoat Show, June 24-26, 2011Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-31767217395140058052008-04-25T22:10:00.000+02:002008-04-25T22:10:00.000+02:00Re the Sumurun case ...I expect this ended up in c...Re the Sumurun case ...<BR/><BR/>I expect this ended up in court because the insurance companies offered an insufficient amount (presumably appraised value) for the boats damaged and thats nowhere near enough to cover the damages done to a historic boat at current American labor costs. Presumably the two NY 30s had insurance for appraised value or maybe a little more but not $1M. <BR/><BR/>They had the choice of taking that (perhaps $ 300k-500k) and letting the insurance companies fight it out or suing for the full damage done - eg $1M. This gap between provable investment in a boat and appraised value is a real problem, because the insurance companies are trying to avoid the *moral hazard* situation of insuring a boat for more than its worth giving people an incentive to destroy a boat rather than sell it.<BR/><BR/>Thats likely why the two owners are up against each other in court rather than the two insurance companies working it out between themselves.<BR/><BR/>BillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-78941975830258718412008-03-29T19:54:00.000+01:002008-03-29T19:54:00.000+01:00I do hope that the regatta continues. It was alwa...I do hope that the regatta continues. It was always a wonderful event.<BR/><BR/>I also should say, after reading my previous rant, that I shouldn't have said what I did to the extent I said it. I do not know any of the details of the transition other than through conversations 3 or 4 times removed from the actual players. I have no facts to support my claims and should know better than to start rumors in such a small town.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps IYRS had a very good reason for the restructuring and perhaps the Museum of Yachting will open up in May bigger and better than anything we've seen before. It would be great to see that.<BR/><BR/>IYRS is still a very well meaning organization that I think needs to remember that it was built by a small community of people for the love and appreciation of classic wooden boats. It's a logical step for IYRS and MOY to join together. I wish them only the best, and apologize for ranting the way I did. I was just caught up in the moment and the memories of last year's regatta. <BR/><BR/>I've been familiar with IYRS for almost 10 years now, and I care deeply for it. The feeling I get from the school has changed over the years, though, and I do hope that they find their way back into my heart. I, of course, can’t speak for anyone else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-46548310101717244932008-03-29T07:27:00.000+01:002008-03-29T07:27:00.000+01:00Thanks for this clarification. This also explains ...Thanks for this clarification. <BR/>This also explains why the results on the museum web page haven't been amended according to the appeal decision.<BR/>And the 2008 events button doesn't work.<BR/>Will there be a regatta this year?Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-47488843373527844762008-03-28T17:05:00.000+01:002008-03-28T17:05:00.000+01:00This has been a fascinating discussion. Well done...This has been a fascinating discussion. Well done, and thank you. The graphic was great too.<BR/><BR/>I wanted to just point one thing out that really doesn't have much to do with the race and accident, but it is interesting it was mentioned. If you don't want to hear me rant for a moment, feel free to just go to the next post... sorry.<BR/><BR/>Your second try for information was an email to the Museum of Yachting. <BR/><BR/>"Answer: “I will be out of the office from 1/24- 2/5/08.” Okay, she’s ducking, 2/5/08, that was a month ago…"<BR/><BR/>She's not ducking. Sally Ann Santos did an INCREDIBLE job managing The Museum of Yachting for as long as I've been in Newport. She did all museum design and displays, managed their dedicated volunteer staff, pretty much single-handedly ran the regattas and events surrounding the regattas, and all in all was a very dedicated and talented person to the museum. <BR/><BR/>The International Yacht Restoration School bought the Museum of Yachting in the Fall of 2007. Even after IYRS's executive director, Terry Nathan, assured everyone that it would be foolish not to keep Sally Ann to run the Museum, he fired her about an hour before she was supposed to go on vacation. That's why the reply message to your email was “I will be out of the office from 1/24- 2/5/08.” She hasn't been back since, and Terry doesn't know how to make her email NOT reply with that message. I'm sure he received your email, but I am also sure he wouldn't respond. He doesn't have any knowledge of what happened, nor does he really know much about boats or yachting to begin with.<BR/><BR/>Look for the opening day of the Museum of Yachting, supposedly in Early May. From what I understand, IYRS has since emptied out the Museum's collection and building (much of the collection that was on loan has been taken back by the owners) and IRYS really doesn't have many plans to continue MOY as it was in the past, so it will be interesting to see what happens.<BR/><BR/>It's sad that Terry Nathan has taken the heart out of IYRS and now the Museum of Yachting and, instead of sticking to the missions of both incredible institutions, has alienate everyone who at one time cared so deeply for both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-52321676954054852412008-03-27T16:31:00.000+01:002008-03-27T16:31:00.000+01:00Good discussion. Clear, civil and objective. Alth...Good discussion. Clear, civil and objective. Although I've been following this case since the day it happened, my knowledge of the RRS is less than comprehensive, so it's good to see the whole thing adressed rule by rule. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-75972945873319158992008-03-27T16:14:00.000+01:002008-03-27T16:14:00.000+01:00Good discussion. Informative, civil, and objective...Good discussion. Informative, civil, and objective. Thank you. Been following this since the day it happened, and without a comprehensive understanding of the RRS, some aspects were unclear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-10563639759363191762008-03-19T12:40:00.000+01:002008-03-19T12:40:00.000+01:00For John: Agreed. I must admit I didn't consider t...For John: Agreed. I must admit I didn't consider the implications of value of a classic yacht in this debt.<BR/><BR/>For Anonymous (4): Can you speculate why the suit was brought by the owners of Amorita, not by their insurers. And, not against the insurance company of Sumurun but against it's owners?<BR/><BR/>I understand your sentiment, but a 10m settlement would also have an effect on your premium, would it not?<BR/><BR/>For Anonymous (5):<BR/>If we put aside this particular incident, did it have the desired effect on the race-course? Did yachts keep clear at a greater distance?<BR/><BR/>For Jarret: Thanks! And it certainly generated visitors!Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-4815299567100575952008-03-19T04:11:00.000+01:002008-03-19T04:11:00.000+01:00great post. i learned a lot.great post. i learned a lot.WeSailFurtherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682759107915210686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-30540475663278224282008-03-18T19:01:00.000+01:002008-03-18T19:01:00.000+01:00US SAILING prescription to rule 86.3US SAILING pre...US SAILING prescription to rule 86.3<BR/><BR/>US SAILING prescribes that proposed rules may be tested, but only in local races.<BR/><BR/>SI 1.4<BR/>In accordance with the US SAILING prescription to rule 86.3, the following rules will be tested for this regatta.<BR/><BR/>For the purposes of rules 10, 13, 14, 15 and 16, the definition of keep clear is changed to:<BR/><BR/>Keep Clear: One boat keeps clear of another when she is more than one of her hull lengths away from the other boat, the other can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action and, when the boats are overlapped on the same tack and the leeward boat can change course in both directions without immediately making contact with the windward boat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-86214411797839365112008-03-18T15:17:00.000+01:002008-03-18T15:17:00.000+01:00I think that it has to go to court because this is...I think that it has to go to court because this is way too severe and there are too many questions about values on an old boat. In small on the water accidents between newer boats normally not a problem. In this case I think everyone knows who is at fault. It is the amount of money to be paid out that is going to be litigated or settled. I am an insurance agent who sails. Values of boats are never agreed upon, especially old ones. And there is probably some type of bodily injury and hopefully punitive damages. Better for a court to decide that and not involve the time of our Sailing judges. They already did their job and it looks to me they did it very well so that now it will come down to how much, not who is at fault.<BR/><BR/>Let's hope the court comes back with a $10,000,000 settlement!!! That will show the insurance company fighting the payout and the skipper with no appreciation for the rules!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-44740389269197392212008-03-18T15:11:00.000+01:002008-03-18T15:11:00.000+01:00We suspect that the cost to restore far exceeds th...We suspect that the cost to restore far exceeds the pre- collision and/or insured value of the S/Y Amorita. In the end in most matters of this nature, "it is all about money".<BR/><BR/>John Andrews<BR/>Wickford, RIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-90857847980409372182008-03-18T12:58:00.000+01:002008-03-18T12:58:00.000+01:00For Pat: This month's Woodenboat magazine has an a...For Pat: This month's Woodenboat magazine has an article "Racing Classic Yachts Managing the growing pains — Chris Museler" about racing classic yachts and how the OA, contestants, and RC can better run the regattas. Someone is sending me a copy. I'll get back to this.<BR/><BR/>For Anonymous (3): Which rules do you think the courts will use to determine who is at fault?<BR/>According to jurisprudence the RRS and those have been sorted out by PC and subsequent appeals. Liability shouldn't be an issue. If it is, we might as well throw the rulebook in the rubbish bin.<BR/>As to quantum, agreed, the court will no doubt hear arguments why the loss of a mobile telephone by one of the crew should or shouldn't be compensated. But that's small compared to the costs of rebuilding Amorita. The fact that she was hit, sunk and was severely damaged can not be disputed.<BR/>And please, don't forget I'm a Mr. ISAF Judge too :P<BR/><BR/>For Maurice: Thank you for this clarification. <BR/>In my experience all racing yachts have policy specifically allowing them to race -with the RRS in force, just to avoid this particular sandpit. Between rules of the road and the RRS when it comes to damages.<BR/>The sum will no doubt be disputed, but not who's at fault, surely?Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-73937939333103685522008-03-18T12:26:00.000+01:002008-03-18T12:26:00.000+01:00I am a lawyer familar with this area of the law. ...I am a lawyer familar with this area of the law. Insurance companies do not always settle, especially if there are hurt feelings and personal injuries. Is the vessel worth $10,000 because it is "old" and made of wood, or 1 million because it is a "classic". The insurance company may only offer low personal injury settlements, but the victims may want much more. All of this will lead you to court. Now, the Court is not required to adopt the findings of the protest committee, but will in all likelihood do so. This is important for people to know: If a matter is litigated by civilians, there is a doctrine that allows for a Court, with some minor exceptions, to usually go by that decision.<BR/><BR/>Maurice Cusick, Esq.<BR/>Newport, R.I.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-45895898418934792102008-03-18T08:21:00.000+01:002008-03-18T08:21:00.000+01:00Is this really so hard to understand?? Amorita is...Is this really so hard to understand?? Amorita is seeking "damages" of $1m. Damages are a matter for the courts to decide. Rhetoric in the complaint adds to drama and can support damages particularly if physical injuries and post traumatic stress are being claimed. Unknown but conjectured is that Sumurum's liability insurers don't want to pay the damages claimed and are prepared to argue both liability and quantum before a jury. See it's easy. Just think beyond yacht racing rules Mr ISAF Umpire.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-32290525957149871662008-03-18T07:59:00.000+01:002008-03-18T07:59:00.000+01:00Ah, but in the USA even the insurance companies hi...Ah, but in the USA even the insurance companies hire lawyers and go to court to battle each other. <BR/><BR/>This is only speculation:<BR/><BR/>Perhaps there were hard feelings related to the sudden, dangerous nature of the collision and rapid sinking of Amorita by the much larger Sumurun. <BR/><BR/>Again this is purely speculation, but perhaps there were feelings that the offending boat's owner or insurance company were not being responsive or taking responsibility as completely or quickly as the victims wanted.<BR/><BR/>And perhaps there were lessons to be considered by the race committee about putting such different boats on the same part of the race course at the same time.Pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13417115374524861438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-44553988412569323242008-03-18T03:38:00.000+01:002008-03-18T03:38:00.000+01:00For Anonymous(1): Please, I want you to draw your ...For Anonymous(1): Please, I want you to draw your own conclusions.<BR/><BR/>For Anonymous(2): We think that in the USA everybody loves to go to court. I wonder why?<BR/><BR/>Does this mean every damage has to be litigated? Surely in nine out of ten cases it is settled by the insurance companies?Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-16439565031541636682008-03-18T02:21:00.000+01:002008-03-18T02:21:00.000+01:00Rule 68 After rule 68 addUS SAILING prescribes tha...Rule 68 After rule 68 add<BR/>US SAILING prescribes that:<BR/>(a) A boat that retires from a race or accepts a penalty does not, by that action alone,<BR/>admit liability for damages.<BR/>(b) A protest committee shall find facts and make decisions only in compliance with<BR/>the rules. No protest committee or US SAILING appeal authority shall adjudicate<BR/>any claim for damages. Such a claim is subject to the jurisdiction of the courts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-21092462063607400562008-03-18T02:20:00.000+01:002008-03-18T02:20:00.000+01:00Seriously, you can't figure this out?Seriously, you can't figure this out?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com