tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post8838905683461049240..comments2024-01-22T09:45:29.790+01:00Comments on Racing Rules of Sailing - Look to Windward: AC 33 | Rules and explanations – part 5Joshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-53648441947769532382010-02-25T06:28:32.565+01:002010-02-25T06:28:32.565+01:00BS on the RC? LOL
Perhaps. Let me find out if anyt...BS on the RC? LOL<br />Perhaps. Let me find out if anything is happening, okay?Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-51977597033915584572010-02-25T04:21:18.664+01:002010-02-25T04:21:18.664+01:00Jos, I don't think there is a problem. As you...Jos, I don't think there is a problem. As you indicated in comment 5, whether or not anybody deserves a warning or penalty under rule 69 should not depend on whether or not they were members of the race committee: unsporting conduct is unsporting conduct. Maybe membership of the race committee would weigh in deciding on the appropriate warning or penalty.<br /><br />The SNG people involved, their status and appontments within Swiss yachting and the fact that they were not ISAF officials has all been spelt out in detail elsewhere.<br /><br />I'm not all that het-up about this: if ISAF allows multi-billionaires to run races and write their own rules why should the rest of us bother?<br /><br />But given the lynch-mob sentimenst expressed by some, do you think it's time for the Further Adventures of Brass Spyderman on the Race Committee Boat?Brassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-6418573550049840232010-02-24T21:28:23.788+01:002010-02-24T21:28:23.788+01:00@Brass (comment 6)
The lack of information on that...@Brass (comment 6)<br />The lack of information on that front is great. No Race-committee members & no Umpire-members on the Official Website - only the Jury.<br />I hope HB has included some names in his report, otherwise it will be a mess to sort out...Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-14416862226444744502010-02-23T03:28:48.777+01:002010-02-23T03:28:48.777+01:00Stop splitting hairs !
If the "spirit "...Stop splitting hairs !<br /><br />If the "spirit " of rule 69 is is broached , the people involved can be disciplined.ill windnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-82409516802476591622010-02-22T20:41:03.333+01:002010-02-22T20:41:03.333+01:00No matter what happens - or doesn't - with ISA...No matter what happens - or doesn't - with ISAF & rule 69, it's clear that the name & honor of SNG is besmirched by the failure of some of its members to be impartial while acting in an official capacity. It reminds us of the subjective scoring abuses in other sports. <br />I predict we'll see a revision to rule 90.1 for dealing with siuations in which the OA is an "interested party" (in the eyes of most observers, if not the definition in the RRS). The RRS give tremendous power to the OA: Write the NOR, Appoint the RC who wirte the SIs & conduct the races. I doubt our rules-writers like what they saw here.-rt-/)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-6564068558863629102010-02-22T13:44:13.247+01:002010-02-22T13:44:13.247+01:00I said that, according to the Protocol, the RC was...I said that, according to the Protocol, the RC was to consist of the Regatta Director, the Principal Race Officer and such other officers appointed by the Regatta Director as are necessary.<br /><br />I note from reports that Harold Bennett was both Regatta Director and PRO. Unless Harold Bennett appointed other persons to the RC, then it is possible that the Race Committee was a committee of one.<br /><br />Has anybody ever seen any details of who was formally appointed to the RC?Brassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-8171016592607088072010-02-22T08:06:50.756+01:002010-02-22T08:06:50.756+01:00@Lord Rumpunch
I think your missing my point. Ther...@Lord Rumpunch<br />I think your missing my point. There is no redress, so no jury involvement. <br />The rules have only one recourse to deal with this issue.<br />@Brass<br />You are probably right about RC and not RC- members. But even if they are not, if they under direct or indirect control of the (P)RO, the rules stay the same. <br />Even if they are part of the OA it changes nothing in the use of 69.2Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-62789908162834124732010-02-22T02:11:11.788+01:002010-02-22T02:11:11.788+01:00I absolutely agree with Jos that the PRO, in submi...I absolutely agree with Jos that the PRO, in submitting his report to ISAF, will have taken all the action that is necessary to enable ISAF to take any action that it thinks fit under rule 69, and that the International Jury at the event would have had no jurisdiction to conduct a rule 69 hearing on any person other than a competitor. I agree that with an experienced IRO and a full International Jury on the spot, if they have not already proceeded under rule 69 at local level, it is highly unlikely that they could or would have been able to find any evidence of misconduct by any competitor.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I think that there could be a clearer explanation of the hierarchical structure of a race organisation. Jos has perpetuated the misunderstanting in some of the quoted media articles that race officers and other persons on race committee boats are members of the Race Committee.<br /><br />Let me try to outline the hierarchical organisation a little more clearly.<br /><br />Races are organised by an Organising Authority (OA), which is usually a Sailing Club, Association, or can be ISAF itself (rule 89.1). You can tell who the OA is because it will be included in the NOR (rule J1.1(1)). for AC33 it is the SNG.<br /><br />The OA must appoint a Race Committee (RC) (rule 89.2(b)) which is required by rule 90.1 to "conduct races as directed by the organizing<br />authority and as required by the rules".<br /><br />The RC is an intangible 'body corporate'. It is capable of making decisions, but it needs one or more human individuals to carry out those decisions. Thus the RC appoints one or more Race Officers (RO), and usally delegates quite a wide range of decision-making power to a Principal Race Officer (PRO). However, all the actions of any Race Officers or any other persons under the rules which affect racing on the water, are taken to be the actions of the RC. The RC obviously expects the PRO to coordinate, control and supervise the actions of others, and to that extent the PRO is 'responsible' to the RC, but ultimately any improper action by any person in connection with the conduct of a race is the responsiblity of the RC.<br /><br />There is no obligation in the rules for the OA to publish who the members of the RC are. According to the only two old Protocols I can find<br /><br />http://32nd.americascup.com/multimedia/docs/2007/07/33ac_protocol.pdf<br /><br />http://bmworacleracing.com/en/americas_cup/rules/pdf/Protocol.pdf<br /><br />The RC shall consist of the Regatta Director, the Principal Race Officer (appointed by the Rwgatta Director), and such other officers as are necessary (appointed by the Regatta Director). Thus it is clear, at least, that the Race Committee consists of more than one person, and includes the PRO. But not all RO, Assistant RO, and other race management personnel are members of the RC. In fact it would be expected that very few of them would be.<br /><br />Put succinctly, the actions of a RO are taken to be the actions of the RC, but the RO is not necessarily a member of the RC.<br /><br />Thus, although there may have been some members of SNG who were members of the RC on board the RC boat, performing the duties of RO or Assistant RO, it is probable that there were other members of SNG performing the duties of RO or Assistant RO who were not members of the RC.<br /><br />Note that in this particular race, there was no improper action by anybody that made any boat's score worse, so there is no question of a redress hearing and no occastion for the protest committee to consider whether there were any improper actions at all.<br /><br />In the case of RO or Assistant RO who refused to obey the instructions of the PRO it makes little difference whether they were members of the RC or not: the issue will be whether ISAF or a MNA considers that there was gross misconduct.Brassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-70889643192697573202010-02-21T19:49:50.876+01:002010-02-21T19:49:50.876+01:00Jos,
You have incorrect facts in your personal not...Jos,<br />You have incorrect facts in your personal notes and thoughts.<br /><br />It is the Deed of Gift that takes precedence over all other rules that govern the America's Cup. Therefore trying to impose wind and wave limits that are in conflict with the Deed is an improper action by the Organising Authority. If you don't believe me, read the AC Jury decision on the subject.<br /><br />The wind limits where measured at 60m! The only place where this could be measured was from Alinghi 5. You must see the total inappropriateness of such a rule. <br /><br />Why would the governing body of our sport insist on appointing a PRO for the event when ISAF's regulations don't require them to? It is because ISAF DID realise the need for the sport to have a fair playing field in what is the highest profile regatta in the sport.<br /><br />Once the Jury granted the redress and removed the wind and wave limits, SNG took actions to undermine that decision. Go and do some simple investigation and find the facts. Let me give you an initial push in the right directions, look for what documents are needed to run a regatta in Spain, then look at the actions of the "race committee" including the totally democratic voting system that SNG tried to impose. <br /><br />You want a good story regarding the actual implementation of rules in high pressure situations, go talk to the jury.Lord Rumpunchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-32903570562920109422010-02-21T08:48:27.282+01:002010-02-21T08:48:27.282+01:00It’s a reference to the WWII Book “The Caine Mutin...It’s a reference to the WWII Book “The Caine Mutiny” by Herman Wouk. Have a read at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caine_Mutiny<br /><br />I translated the most famous sentence from that book in to Spanish because this ‘mutiny’ happened in Valencia on a Spanish boat.<br />And I chose this book because the mutiny was about legal issues, not about violence like on the Bounty.<br /><br />Good book (imho)Joshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10346870418220762709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9170261917486213112.post-12222614406006516542010-02-21T02:15:00.371+01:002010-02-21T02:15:00.371+01:00Strawberries? I'm confused.Strawberries? I'm confused.tillermanhttp://propercourse.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.com