Rule 18.3 has been changed in the new RRS 2013-2016;
(duh, otherwise I wouldn't have had to write this)
I'm not quite sure if the chosen language does not have a much greater impact than first assumed;
Was it the intention of the Rulescommittee to change the rules for boats changing tack in the zone?
This is what the rule is now:
18.3 Tacking in the Zone
This is what the rule in 2013-2016 is going to be:
18.3 Tacking in the Zone
The PC find as fact that Purple had completed her tack (was no longer subject to rule 13) when the other boats (Grey and/or Red) changed course.
Is in the new rules (RRS 2013-2016) the Purple boat breaking rule 18.3?
Leave a comment.
J.
(duh, otherwise I wouldn't have had to write this)
I'm not quite sure if the chosen language does not have a much greater impact than first assumed;
Was it the intention of the Rulescommittee to change the rules for boats changing tack in the zone?
This is what the rule is now:
18.3 Tacking in the Zone
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent
the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her.
This is what the rule in 2013-2016 is going to be:
18.3 Tacking in the Zone
If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply between them. The boat that changed tackI have two scenario's for your consideration:
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact or prevent
the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her.
 |
| Situation A |
 |
| Situation B |
The PC find as fact that Purple had completed her tack (was no longer subject to rule 13) when the other boats (Grey and/or Red) changed course.
Is in the new rules (RRS 2013-2016) the Purple boat breaking rule 18.3?
Leave a comment.
J.
In Case A, Purple does not appear to pass head to wind, and so 18.3 does not apply.
ReplyDeleteIn Case B, Purple passes head to wind briefly to port and again back to stbd. However Blue begins to head up to avoid Purple (while purple still has ROW) before Purple reaches head to wind and does not have to luff further once Purple passes head to wind and so I would still not apply 18.3. So the luff by Blue is not due to Purple going past head to wind, but rather to avoid Purple while Purple is ROW under R 11, R 17 and R 18.2.b.
John
Yes I think the boat would be disqualified,. I do not see a change, the boat would be dsq now as we'll. the boat is tacking when past head to wind but has changed tack under the definition
ReplyDeleteIn the current rule the first premise is that boats must be approaching the mark. In these situations the boat changing tack is already at the mark. I would not DSQ under the current rules but would under the new ones.
DeleteI think the comment about boats approaching a mark in the current rule was intended to make the distinction between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it. I think you are approaching a mark until you are leaving it. There is no intermediate stage where you are neither approaching nor leaving but at.
DeleteTo me, the only change is in the current rules, 18.3 applies if you complete a tack in the zone whereas the new one applies if you pass head to wind in the zone.
Wag
I'm with Mike B. As soon as purple passed htw onto port, she was approaching the mark on port. When she tacked onto starboard tack again, 18.3 applied. DSQ under 09-12 as well.
DeleteI think in both versions, purple broke 18.3. At the moment she passed htw, she was approaching the mark on port tack while grey and red were fetching the mark...
ReplyDeleteDoes purple forced other boats to change course while she (purple) was subject to rules 13?
ReplyDeleteIs it enough that the other boats has changed the course after purple has tacked to conclude that purple has not broken 13? Can she be exonerated for breaking rule 13?
If I understand correctly from the images, at least in the first case, purple boat for a short time is on port tack. And while she on port tack she is not keeping clear of other boats (so she is breaking 10, and 15 does not applies here).
It does appear that there USA change before you need to be approaching the mark on opposite tacks or 18.3 didn't apply. Now you need to be careful not to pass head to wind even by a little bit or you will be subject to the limitations in 18.3.
ReplyDeleteDo you know what the problem they were trying to solve with this change in wording?
In any case, it does not appear that the boats in either example were drawn as being on opposite tacks when they were approaching the mark.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jos, and that's definitely one of the reasons the Section C Working Party proposed the change -- under the 2009-2012 RRS, a port-tack boat coming in right at the mark could argue that she was not "approaching the mark" before she tacked, but was already at the mark. Of course, that boat was the prime reason for having rule 18.3 in the first place!
ReplyDeleteA second change, from "... subject to rule 13 in the zone ..." to "... in the zone passes head to wind ..." was mainly for readability; rule 13 has nothing to do with this rule. The 2009-2012 expression "subject to rule 13" was simply a surrogate for "past head to wind and not yet on a close-hauled course." Some readers were saying, "but I was never subject to rule 13 -- when I tacked I was nowhere near any other boats ...". The new wording is certainly clearer, but note that it moves application of the rule about a half boatlength closer to the mark -- in 2013-2016, the tacking boat must pass head to wind in the zone, not just be subject to rule 13 in the zone, for rule 18.3 to apply to her.
The third change, highlighted by Situation B, is that as of 2013 the tacking boat breaks rule 18.3 if the other boat goes above head to wind "to avoid contact" whereas the current wording is "to avoid her". So if only Red has to go above close hauled in Situation B, Purple breaks the 2013-2016 RRS but not the 2009-2012 RRS.
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ReplyDeleteUnder the new rules for 2013 to 2016
ReplyDeleteQuestion what happens if there is a vessel A how is ahead on port tack and has to tack to around the mark. And that the vessel B astern is on Starboard tack with Proper Course rule 17.
The vessel A on port complete her tack and is now ahead and Right of Way in less than 2 second that the vessel B astern on Starboard tack runs into A stern.
how is at fault on this?
And under which rule
Anonymous, 7th Dec, B is at fault, A is likely also to be at fault.
ReplyDeleteB breaks rule 12 and is not exonerated under rule 21 because she is not (when she runs into the back of A) entitled to mark room under 18.3. It might be that A broke rule 15. If these were dinghies and it was near 2 seconds, I think not. If they were keel boats or it was a lot less than 2 secs, I think so. If A broke 15, then B is exonerated. B broke rule 14 unless A broke rule 15. If A broke 15, she also broke 14.
Assuming A passed head to wind in the zone, she is restricted by 18.3 a and b. It is likely that B would have to sail above close hauled to avoid by going to windward and A would be unable to give mark room if B went to leeward. A would break 18.3 in these circumstances.
Wag