In today's episode of our LTW 2012 Winter Challenge you assignment is about a protest by the Race Committee.
During a regatta the finish committee witnesses a boat crossing the finish line, while one crew member is in the water being dragged by the boat. The committee score the boat and then report the incident to the RO who, after some thinking, decides to lodge a protest. The PC declares the protest valid.
In the subsequent hearing the skipper tells that the crew member fell overboard just 30 meters from the finish but managed to hang onto a rope (jib-sheet). The crew pulled himself towards the boat and with one hand on the rope and the other on a stanchion, the boat continued. The water was not cold and the crew was in no danger, according to him. He decided to continue sailing and help the crew back on board after crossing the line, as to not lose any places. The boat finished first in that race.
Write the facts found, draw a conclusion and analyse all rules involved. Then decide the protest.
As per usual, you can ask any question to either party, but only two in total. Deadline for question one is Monday 23:59 and for question two Wednesday also 23:59.
I'm doing a clinic on rules tonight and have a Match Race event tomorrow. Scoring on Episode 02/24 will be on Sunday - if nothing else happens. Don't forget the deadline for your submission: Midnight tonight.
During a regatta the finish committee witnesses a boat crossing the finish line, while one crew member is in the water being dragged by the boat. The committee score the boat and then report the incident to the RO who, after some thinking, decides to lodge a protest. The PC declares the protest valid.
In the subsequent hearing the skipper tells that the crew member fell overboard just 30 meters from the finish but managed to hang onto a rope (jib-sheet). The crew pulled himself towards the boat and with one hand on the rope and the other on a stanchion, the boat continued. The water was not cold and the crew was in no danger, according to him. He decided to continue sailing and help the crew back on board after crossing the line, as to not lose any places. The boat finished first in that race.
Write the facts found, draw a conclusion and analyse all rules involved. Then decide the protest.
As per usual, you can ask any question to either party, but only two in total. Deadline for question one is Monday 23:59 and for question two Wednesday also 23:59.
I'm doing a clinic on rules tonight and have a Match Race event tomorrow. Scoring on Episode 02/24 will be on Sunday - if nothing else happens. Don't forget the deadline for your submission: Midnight tonight.
Skipper: Did you cross the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark at any point during the race in question, after your crew member was back on board?
ReplyDeleteI crossed the line with my crew, he was still with the boat.
DeleteFacts found:
ReplyDeleteHe fell over the side
He did so while working the boat in the normal way
The boat did not go any faster as a result
The Volvo boats are allowed to put someone over the side to clear the foils and don't necessarily stop completely.
George Morris
Conclusion: Protest dismissed
Comment: If regattas are going to be punctuated by protests over this sort of thing it will kill our already ailing sport stone dead.
Nevertheless there's rule 42, 47.2 and 49.2
DeleteIn the Volvo example the crew was not IN the water and performing a necessary task.
You would not have scored in the challenge....
Question: What is the length of the boat?
ReplyDeleteLength of the boat 6.5 meters
DeleteMy answer (traveling for a few days and don't think the answer to my question will affect answer, although if you say the boat is 30 meters long I would change my answer!)
ReplyDeleteFacts: 30 meters before the finish a crew member fell overboard. He held onto the jibsheet and pulled himself to the boat. He then held onto a stanchion but remained in the water. The skipper felt he was not in danger and made the decision to not help the crew member back on board but to continue racing.
Conclusion: Falling overboard is both unexpected and unfortunate and therefore qualifies as an "accident" ("An unexpected and undesirable event"). Although holding onto the jibsheet, the crew member clearly "left" the boat when he fell into the water. Although he subsequently held onto a stanchion, he remained in the water and was therefore not "on board" the boat while the boat continued toward the finish. It is irrelevant whether the skipper thought the crew member was in danger.
Decision: Rule 47.2 requires that "A person leaving the boat by accident ... shall (mandatory) be back on board before the boat continues in the race." Not only was the crew member not back on board after the accident caused him to leave the boat, but the skipper made a decision to ignore this requirement. Penalty DSQ
A little long with your sentences, but basicly correct. Now we need 42 and 49.2
DeleteAND I need you nickname. Whom am I to credit with 7 points?
David, your seven points are now added in the scoring sheet.
DeleteGeorge
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to hear that sailing is an ailing sport in your area. Where I come from, it's growing.
Do you think that the negativity of those involved, where you come from, has a greater affect in killing the sport than a few protests made by race officers?
Dauphine
Question to race committee.
ReplyDeleteThe crew was anging on to a stanchion. Did the boat also have lifelines?
Grey Bear
Yes
DeleteTo the representative of the boat: please explain what actions - with regards to getting the crew back on board and continuing the race - the boat took when the crew fell overboard.
ReplyDeleteI helped him back inside when we had crossed the finish line.
DeleteRace Committee, did you consider the man overboard to be in danger, if so, what sort of danger, how serious did you consider this danger to be, and what made you think all of this?
ReplyDeleteRO: "I heard about this from my Finish Committee. They didn't tell me about if the crew was in danger or not. I guess not. I was not sure if someone was allowed to finish with a crew member in the water, so I thought it would be prudent to ask the PC"
DeleteQuestion to the Skipper: You said that your crew was not in danger. Tell me, please, what do you base this statement on?
ReplyDeleteHe was holding on very easily, the water was not cold and he's a very good swimmer. He was never in any danger.
DeleteQuestion for the crew member who fell overboard
ReplyDeleteCan you please tell us, in your own words, what happened from the time you fell into the water to the time you got back on board the boat?
He's not in the room.
DeleteQuestion to the representative of the boat:
ReplyDeleteCan you please tell us the exact position of your crew and what he was doing at the moment he fell overboard?
Steviekouris
p.s. can we also ask for witnesses? (e.g. for a member of the finish committee?
Welcome to the challenge!
DeleteMy crew was adjusting the jib sheet when he fell overboard. I'm sure how exactly, I was already on the windward side looking when to tack for the finish.
There will be NO witnesses. Ask the RO.
RO: Did the boat cross the finish line from the course side at some point after getting their crew back on board?
ReplyDeleteRO: "According to my information the boat only crossed the finish line once and at that time the crew was in the water"
DeleteQuestion to the representative of the boat:
ReplyDeleteDid you give any order to the crew in the water to stay in the water, or to the other crew not to help him on board,
Grey Bear
I just told him to hang on and we would pick him up after crossing the line
DeleteSkipper, was the man overboard wearing a lifejacket or buoyancy aid (a personal floatation device) and if not, should he have been?
ReplyDeleteHe was wearing a buoyancy aid
DeleteQuestion to the Skipper: What distance were you from the finishing line when you realized that your crew can not come back without your help? (And on which side of the line?)
ReplyDeleteWe were about 30 meters from the line on the course side. Because the boat was still under speed he could get himself back in the boat. So I told him to hang on and we would help him once we had crossed the finish line
DeleteTo the Race Officer: was the crew back on board before the boat crossed the finishing line and if yes, how many boat lenghts before it?
ReplyDeleteHe was still in the water when the boat crossed the finish line.
DeleteFF:
Delete1. B is on a close-hauled course, with some 5 knots of speed and 5 boat lengths to the finishing line.
2. The next boat is some 4 boat lengths behind.
3. B’s crew falls into the water but manages to hang on to a jib-sheet and a stanchion post.
4. B’s skipper does not attempt to help his crew back on board. B continues to the finishing line and finishes with the crew still not on board. B finished first in this race.
5. After finishing, the skipper helps the crew back on board and does not cross the finishing line again.
6. The crew is a good swimmer and the water temperature is about 15 degrees.
7. RC protest B.
Conclusions and rules that apply:
B’s crew was not in danger. B does not break RRS 1.1.
B’s crew, who left the boat by accident, was not back on board before B continued in the race. This breaks RRS 47.2
Decision: Protest upheld. B is DSQ in this race.
Score 8 points
DeleteLike most others, you forgot 42 and 49.2
Question to the RO:
ReplyDeletePlease give any information regarding whether the person in the water was in danger, including the conditions, speed of the boat, and vicinity of other boats.
RO: "I don't think he was in imminent danger. The temperature of the water this time of year is about 15 degrees, the boat was sailing close hauled, not planing or anything like that, so maybe 5 knots and two other boats were perhaps 20 meters behind"
DeleteFacts Found:
ReplyDelete1. On a beat to windward, a crew member fell overboard 30 meters from the finish.
2. With the crew member hanging on, the boat continued in the race, and finished.
3. The crew was then helped back on board.
Conclusions:
1. A person left the boat by accident.
2. The person was not back on board before the boat continued in the race.
3. Boat breaks rule 47.2
4. The person was not in danger
5. Boat does not break rule 1.
Decision:
Protest is upheld.
Boat is DSQ (rule 47.2)
Good facts, but not all involved rules are considered. I would - if you only use rule 47.2 - keep my conclusions equally short. 1,2 and 3 are enough.
DeleteScore 7
FACTS FOUND
ReplyDelete- 30 meters from the finish line, one of boat A's crew fell overboard.
- The crew held on to a jib sheet, pulled himself towards the boat, and hanged on to a stanchion.
- With the crew in the water, the boat continued racing and finished.
CONCLUSIONS AND RULES THAT APPLY
- By continuing racing, after a person left the boat by accident, without the person being back on board, boat A breaks rule 47.2.
DECISION
Boat A is disqualified.
If only one rule was to be considered this is good.
DeleteBut you forgot 42 and perhaps 49.2
Score 8 points
Race Committee v. “Sandbagger”
ReplyDeleteI have given the boat a name to make writing facts and conclusions easier to read.The “sandbaggers were a class that habitually jettisoned excess crew.
Facts found
1. 30 metres from the finishing line a member of the crew of “Sandbagger” accidentally fell overboard.
2. The crew member kept hold of a jib sheet. He hauled himself alongside the boat but remained in the water, holding on to the sheet and a stanchion.
3. The person in charge of “Sandbagger” ordered the crew to remain in the water, and told him that he would be brought back on board after the boat crossed the line.
4. The crew was still in the water when “Sandbagger” crossed the finish line. The crew was then recovered.
5. “Sandbagger”was scored first in this race.
6. The Race Committee protested “Sandbagger”
Conclusions
1. A person who left “Sandbagger” by accident was not back on board before the boat continued in the race. “Sandbagger” broke rule 47.2.
2. “ Sandbagger” deliberately broke rule 47.2. She did not compete in compliance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play. “Sandbagger” broke rule 2.
Decision
1. “Sandbagger” is disqualified.
2. This disqualification is not excludable under rule 90.3(b).
Grey Bear
Should be shorter in the facts. I would not use 5 and 6.
DeleteYou found as fact that the skipper ordered the crew to remain - to be able to conclude that rule 2 was broken.
I would not have done so, but perhaps the other panel members would have...
Score 8 points
Where are RRS 42 and 49,2? You were the one asking about lifelines.....
Facts found:
ReplyDeleteKeelboat (6.5m) sailing close-hauled upwind towards finish line.
30m from line, member of crew falls overboard but remains in contact with boat (hangs onto jib sheet); pulls himself back to boat, gets hold of stanchion, but remains in water.
Crew wearing buoyancy aid, water temperature about 15 degrees, boat sailing at about 5 knots, two other boats about 20m behind.
Skipper aware that crew is overboard but decides to continue racing (and tells crew this). Helps crew back onboard after crossing finish line.
Conclusion:
Competitor left boat by accident, but was not back on board before boat continued in race – breach of rule 47.2.
(Crew was not in danger, hence skipper did not break rule 1.1 by not giving help immediately).
(Crew was wearing a PFD adequate for the conditions in compliance with rule 1.2).
(No evidence that crew had positioned body outside lifelines in breach of Rule 49.2).
Decision:
DSQ boat from race.
Zaphod
(I also thought about rule 42, but decided not to go there).
Score 9 points
DeleteIf only you would have gone for the ultimate answer.....
Facts found:
ReplyDelete-Boat X was sailing on a close hauled course towards the finish line.
-30 m. before the finishing line crew member fell overboard, while adjusting the jib sheet.
-Crew member was hanging from the jib sheet on one hand and a stanchion on the other hand.
-Helmsman of boat X asked crew to hang on until crossing the finishing line.
-Crew member was not in any danger.
-Boat X helped crew member back on board after crossing the finishing line.
-Boat X crossed the finishing line only once, with the crew member still in the water, in first place.
Conclusion:
Boat X continued her race while her crew member was not on board, failing to comply with RRS 47.2
By asking the crew to hang on until the finish and by helping him only after the finish line with the purpose to not loose any places, boat X violated a recognized principle of sportsmanship and fair play, breaking RRS 2
Decision:
Boat X is DNE from the race
Steviekouris
Score 8 points
DeleteLike I said in the scoring post, I wouldn't have gone rule 2
And what about 42 and 49.2?
Nice writing, though.
DeleteFacts Found
ReplyDelete1. Boat: 6.5 m length, equipped with lifelines.
2. Boat A was sailing close-hauled toward the finishing line at a speed of 5 knots. When she was 30 m from the line, a crew member accidentally fell overboard, but managed to hold on the jib sheet with one hand and on a stanchion with the other hand.
3. Boat A continued sailing, and 20-30 seconds later she crossed the finishing line, with the crew member hanging over the side of the boat. Then they helped the crew member back on board.
4. Moderate wind, water temperature 15 Celsius.
Crew member is a good swimmer, he was holding on easily.
Conclusions
1. The crew member was not in danger in the given conditions. Boat A did not break rule 1.1.
2. Boat A finished according to definition when her hull, or any other part of the boat or crew, which was in normal position at that time, crossed the finishing line first.
3. Despite hanging over the side of he boat, the crew member has not left the boat. Boat A did not break rule 47.2 (ISAF Q&A 2008-002)
4. The crew member did not "position" his torso outside the lifelines, he fell off. After that, he briefly performed a necessary task (to come back). Boat A did not break rule 49.2.
5. While the crew member was in the water, he did not attempt to progress the position of the boat in the race. Boat A did not break rule 42.1.
Decision
Protest dismissed.
I'm sorry Pelso, wrong conclusions!
Delete2008-002 E004 was deleted November 2011, so you can't use it.
Also, the boat does not break rule 47.2 while the crew are making all reasonable attempts to recover the boat and get back on board, provided they are not making any attempt to progress the position of the boat in the race. If they attempt to ‘swim’ the boat across the finishing line, they
would break both rule 47.2 and rule 42.1, and possibly rule 2.
If you hang on to something, you position yourself.
And like I stated in the scoring post, decreasing the speed of the boat is also breaking rule 42.
Can't give you more than 5 points.
Facts found
ReplyDeleteWhen boat X was 30 meters from finishing, a crew member accidentally fell overboard.
Boat X continued sailing and crossed the finish line while the crew member remained overboard, holding onto a stanchion and jib sheet.
The crew member was not performing any task, other than holding on.
Conclusions
Boat X continued to race without her crew member being back on board: she broke rule 47.2.
Boat X was racing with a crew member attached, whose torso was positioned outside the lifelines: she broke rule 49.2.
Boat X finished.
Rules applicable
47.2, 49.2
Decision
Boat X is DSQ
Note:
Under the definition of finish, there is no requirement for crew members be in their normal position for a boat to finish. However, a crew member needs to be in their normal position if the time of the finish is to be taken from the time their body crosses the line.
Rules 47 and 49 are intended for safety, in the same way as are the rules for personal flotation devices. It is irrelevant whether a breach of these rules aided the boat, or whether the skipper considered the crew member was actually in danger. Unless the SIs provide otherwise, a protest committee is required to disqualify any boat that breaks RRS 47 or 49. Like the other rules in Part 4, these rules only apply while a boat is racing.
Good. You did use 49.2. If only you also had looked at 42.
DeleteScore 9 points
Oooh, Boat X finished is a fact, not a conclusion....
What about all these pictures you see of bowmen on the end of spinnaker poles or up the mast kicking the battens while racing? If the boat heels they'll be outside the lifelines. Are all these boats to be disqualified? What about leaning over the stern to free a piece of weed from the rudder? You are probably right in your interpretation of the rules but there is a feeling in the air that some sport administrators are ruining the sport for the participants (Rugby is an example). Those who get their kicks from disqualifying people who are actually taking part need to be careful.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Morris
All your examples are about crew members performing necessary tasks. Rule 49.2 specifically allows that. I would not DSQ a boat, for those.
DeleteI'm well aware that sailing is a self policing sport and there's a limit to what an official should do. But in my experience, rules are infringed left and right at an average mark rounding in a fleet.
Two points:
ReplyDelete1. You could argue that the crew in the water was performing a necessary task - trying to get back on board, as required by the rules - until ordered to stop by the skipper. He was not,therfore, breaking 49.2, until he was ordered to cease to attempt to get back on board. It was established as a fact that the skipper ordered the crew not to get back on board until the boat had finished - hence rule 2.
2 I have no problem with "shall compete by using only the wind and water to ncrease, maintain or decrease her speed" However, a standard dictionary defintion of "propel" would be :
Definition of PROPEL
transitive verb
: to drive forward or onward by or as if by means of a force that imparts motion
In my experience only those who have trained as engineers consider that a passive immersion of part or all of a body gives a "negative" drive forward, onward or even backwards. If a boat is put into a swimming pool with no wind merely immersing a leg, arm, torso or putting a crew overboard does not, in itself, drive forward or onward by or as if by means of a force that imparts motion. The body part has to be moved to do so.
There is, apparently, a consensus that passive immersion of all or part of a body "propels" negativement a boat. Unfortunately, I have yet to see a case, call or interpretation that supports this consensus. I have come to accept that in this case race officials do not use the word "propel" "in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use". As a small cog in the judging/umpiring system I continue to implement this unwritten consensus but wait with impatience for a clear call to be made.
In brief - I did not consider it necessary to adventure on to the slippery slopes of 42.1 or 49.2 when a clear, and deliberate, breach of 47.2 was already established
Grey Bear
Fair dinkum.
DeleteWould you disqualify a boat sticking a leg in the water just before starting to prevent a boat sailing over the line early?
I do not agree that the boat from this episode broke 42.1.
Delete42.1 says that the boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed.
In this episode, the boat competed _while_ her speed was being decrased, not _by_ decreasing it.
Would you consider dragging your spi in the water a breach of 42.1?
Sticking the leg in the water to avoid an OCS is competing _by_ decreasing the speed in an unauthorised way, so this would be a breach of 42.1.
Hmm, being decreased by someone who is (deliberately) not on board is in my book the same as decreasing it...
DeleteBut you have a point with the spinnaker.
What if there was a downwind start and you did it on purpose?
Rule 42.1 says:"...., but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat."
ReplyDeleteSo, a breach of this rule must contain a movement of the body, and in addition this movement must propel the boat.
I think that sticking a leg, or a crew member hanging from a stanchion without moving does not contain any movement.
Steviekouris
Like Grey Bear stated 'propel' can also be negative. Would you allow a paddle being stuck in the water before the start to prevent OCS as complying with rule 42?
DeleteIn my area, I occasionally see crew of 25-feet keelboat class helping to roll the boat through the tack by giving one strong pull on the shrouds with their weight while their torsos are positioned outside of the lifelines as they are doing it.
ReplyDeleteWould you consider this a breach of 49.2, or would you rather consider this “briefly to perform a necessary task” and therefore OK (provided it is within the limitations of RRS 42 and its interpretations)?
Roll tacking is one of the exceptions (within the limitations) and therefore allows a body to outside the lifelines briefly.
DeleteYet another scenario: a 420 capsizes 10 metres before the finishing line and drifts to the line as the crew are trying to put the boat up.
ReplyDeleteThe moment when the capsized hull crosses the line is taken as their finishing time by the RC and they continue to drift. When they finally put the boat up, they sail away, happy that they have finished.
Would you consider they broke 42.1 here? How about 47.2?
Although it has been deleted I still agree with Q&A 2008-002 E004 in this situation.
DeleteYes, I would disqualify because that is what the current (unwritten) consensus among judges says should be done. However, I am not convinced that the rule as written actually says the same thing as the way the rule as currently implemented.
ReplyDeleteIf the second sentence of rule 42.1 read "(...) but shall not otherwise move their bodies to increase, maintain or decrease her (that is the boat's) speed", there would be no problem.
However,the rule reads "(...) but shall not otherwise move their bodies to to drive forward or onward by or as if by means of a force that imparts motion (dictionary definition of propel) to the boat".
A static body part immersed in the water assuredely uses the force of water to decrease a boat's speed. However, a motionless leg does not to drive forward or onward by or as if by means of a force that imparts motion. There is a difference between the much mentioned "stroke of a paddle" and holding a paddle motionless in the water.
Another example - if a crew on a trapeze lies in the water and thereby prevents the boat capsizing to windward, are they breaking rule 42?
Grey Bear
You are right, there is a difference. However in our challenge the boat is moving trough the water and therefore the person in the water has a (negative) propelling force.
DeleteIf the crew in the trapeze is doing it to prevent the boat from becoming OCS I would consider that a rule 42 infringement as well...
Even though the boat in our example is moving through the water the body is motionless, that means no body movement.
ReplyDeleteAt least for me it would me more logical to penalize her under Rule 42 because the deceleration caused by the crew being in the water and hanging from a stanchion is not considered an act of seamanship.
But could you explain me why you consider this action as a breach of rule 42 and instead the example mentioned above with the boat dragging her spinnaker is not?
Steviekouris
Dragging a spinnaker is usually an accident. If it was done deliberately to keep the boat from moving forward it's a rule 42 infringement.
DeleteThe person in the water decreases the speed of the boat. Whether this "propels" the boat, that is "imparts motion", is a moot point. For someone, like me, who does not have any training as an engineer, imparting motion by doing nothing is a somewhat stange construct.
ReplyDeleteTo go back to the paddle analogy, - holding the paddle motionless in the water does not impart motion, it increases the resistance of the boat and thus decreases any motion imparted by other forces.
A Case, or some other interpretation, would help, whilst awaiting a re-wording of the rule so that it actually says what judges want it to mean.
Grey Bear
On that last statement I can only agree.
DeleteHere is the way I read it:
Delete"42.1 Basic Rule
Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed."
A body in the water decreases the speed, as Grey Bear points out, and it is not permitted in 42.3 or 45. Clearly breaking the rule up until now.
"Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat."
Hanging on while overboard is not adjusting the trim or sails and hull, nor an act of seamanship. This second statement is allowing further exceptions to the first statement. The situation is not one of these further exceptions. The boat is still breaking the rule.
Then come specific and clear violations... body in the water is not included, but it does say "Without limiting the application of rule 42.1". I think still breaking the rule.
So if I catch a plastic bag under the keel i am still breaking the rule?
DeleteWith exactly the same thinking we conclude to the same thing: that the boat is still breaking the rule.
Steviekouris
Hm... the possibility of the plastic bag is similar to the spinnaker in the water that somebody posted about. The logic in both cases is that it was an accident and not a deliberate action. But I don't know where in the rules to look for how to make such a distinction.
DeleteBut as you quoted there is no distinction in the rule if the action was deliberate or not!!!
DeleteMy point of view is that the situations stated above (spinnaker in the water, plastic bag, foot on the water) don't propel the boat with the effect of a stroke of a paddle.
Steviekouris
I disagree with you that an action has to propel the boat in order to be a rule 42 violation. The basic rule is that a boat cannot use anything other than wind and water to "increase, maintain, or decrease speed." If it required propelling, then decreasing the speed would not be mentioned in the basic rule.
DeleteBut this deliberate bit has left a bad taste in my mouth. Why is it that a deliberate action is required for a rule 42 violation? For any other rule, a deliberate breach carries with it a rule 2 violation. But a rule 42 violation /requires/ a deliberate breach of the rule?? Why is a deliberate breach of rule 42 (for example, repeated pumping) not a rule 2 breach? Stupid 42 thinks it's so damn special :P