Today’s episode is about a situation send in by Eric Robbins from the US. I’ve only made some (small) textual changes and provided the animation. I’ve deleted the sail numbers and changed them to colours to identify the boats. (Red and Purple). (What is it with those two? They seem to be in an awful lot of protests!).
Protest #8:
In an eight-boat class, in the last race of the day, the first two Fireballs (17 feet long), leave the leeward mark to port, then reach across the bow of the finish boat to cross the finish line which was between the starboard shroud of a J-105 and a mark set off the starboard bow. The finish boat had a long anchor rode. The finish line was approximately 10 boats lengths from the leeward mark.
Fireball Purple rounded the leeward mark clear ahead of Red. Both were flying spinnakers on the reach to the finish, planing at about 10 knots. Fireball Red established an overlap to leeward and inside when Purple was approximately two boat lengths from the anchor rode. Purple barely cleared the anchor rode, and finished overlapped, one-half length ahead of Red, but Red hooked the anchor rode with its rudder, with its bow just across the finish line. In the absence of the anchor rode, there would have been enough room for Red to pass between Purple and the finish boat.
Red was hung alongside, and touching, the finish boat, with the crew in the water hanging on the side of the Fireball, for over one minute, and had to cast off its rudder to get free. There was minor damage to both Red and the finish boat.
Red requested and received help from the finish boat and a mark boat to retrieve his rudder, then took a One-Turn Penalty, came back and re-finished in last place. At this point Red announced to the RC that he was protesting Purple. Red did not hail “protest” to Purple, but informed him on shore after the race. The protest was filed within the time limit. The skipper of Purple stated that he never saw Red get an overlap, as he was looking forward, but he did later see Red hung on the side of the finish boat.
The RC filed a protest against Red for breaking rule 41, outside help, also within the time limit.
What should the RC record for Red’s finish?
Is the protest by Red valid?
Write the protest with Facts Found, Rules that apply, Conclusions and a Decision
As always you have a limited number of questions, three in this episode, since there are three parties involved. But you can ask all three to the same party if you so want. Deadlines on Monday 23:59, Tuesday 23:59 and Wednesday 23:59. Final entry before Friday 23:59.
Protest #8:
In an eight-boat class, in the last race of the day, the first two Fireballs (17 feet long), leave the leeward mark to port, then reach across the bow of the finish boat to cross the finish line which was between the starboard shroud of a J-105 and a mark set off the starboard bow. The finish boat had a long anchor rode. The finish line was approximately 10 boats lengths from the leeward mark.
Fireball Purple rounded the leeward mark clear ahead of Red. Both were flying spinnakers on the reach to the finish, planing at about 10 knots. Fireball Red established an overlap to leeward and inside when Purple was approximately two boat lengths from the anchor rode. Purple barely cleared the anchor rode, and finished overlapped, one-half length ahead of Red, but Red hooked the anchor rode with its rudder, with its bow just across the finish line. In the absence of the anchor rode, there would have been enough room for Red to pass between Purple and the finish boat.
Red was hung alongside, and touching, the finish boat, with the crew in the water hanging on the side of the Fireball, for over one minute, and had to cast off its rudder to get free. There was minor damage to both Red and the finish boat.
Red requested and received help from the finish boat and a mark boat to retrieve his rudder, then took a One-Turn Penalty, came back and re-finished in last place. At this point Red announced to the RC that he was protesting Purple. Red did not hail “protest” to Purple, but informed him on shore after the race. The protest was filed within the time limit. The skipper of Purple stated that he never saw Red get an overlap, as he was looking forward, but he did later see Red hung on the side of the finish boat.
The RC filed a protest against Red for breaking rule 41, outside help, also within the time limit.
What should the RC record for Red’s finish?
Is the protest by Red valid?
Write the protest with Facts Found, Rules that apply, Conclusions and a Decision
As always you have a limited number of questions, three in this episode, since there are three parties involved. But you can ask all three to the same party if you so want. Deadlines on Monday 23:59, Tuesday 23:59 and Wednesday 23:59. Final entry before Friday 23:59.
Q1 to red. When (if at all)did you realise that clearing the anchor rode would be a problem?
ReplyDeleteQ2 to red. Why (given that it would not have affected the result) did you not fall into line astern behind purple?
Q3 to any witness on the committee boat. Did Red give any indication, either by altering course, freeing or hardening her spinnaker sheet or hailing, that she was not content with the amount of room being given?
George Morris
A1 RED: "I did realise it until I got stuck"
DeleteA2 RED: "I thought perhaps I could get my bow in front..."
A3 RO: We did not see any indication that she was unhappy with the space available"
Question to RED:
ReplyDeleteWhy did you not steer a course to avoid the anchor rode?
RED: "I didn't realise we were so close and that the rudder would hook"
DeleteRed: please describe your actions between the time when you established overlap until you hooked the anchor rode with your rudder.
ReplyDeleteRED: "I was sailing as fast as I could to get my bow across the line before Purple's. I didn't watch the rode or the RC-boat, I was concentrating on speed.... Only after we stopped I realized we were very close to the committee boat."
DeleteQuestion for the race committee:
ReplyDeleteCan you describe in detail how you were anchored, including details of:
-how much of the anchor line was visible above the water;
- was the line marked by a buoy or by any other means.
Grey Bear
RO: "We anchored in fairly shallow water. But the anchor is not very good so I gave permission to lengthen the rode by five meters. I don't know exactly how much line was visible, if I should guess three or four meters. There was no buoy. Next time there will be."
DeleteRepresentative of the Race Committee, please would you describe for me, as fully as possible, absolutely everything that happened, no matter how trivial or irrelevant you think it might be, from the time when Purple was passing the last mark until Red had crossed the finish line for the second time and announced his intention to protest Purple.
ReplyDeleteRO: I didn't see the incident, I was not aboard of the finish vessel at that moment. I only got the verbal report from my finish committee-chair.
DeleteI can only repeat what has been said already. Would you like me to get the finish committee chair?"
Question to Red: What did you do to try to avoid the anchor rod?
ReplyDeleteRED: "I didn't do nothing. Only after getting stuck I realized we were so close"
DeleteQuestion to Red:
ReplyDeleteCan you please tell us what exactly was the damage on the boat and when did you notice it?
Steviekouris
RED: "The paint got chipped at the bow and also at the front starboard side. Nothing to serious, we need to tape it to prevent water getting into the wood, but a piece of tape should do the trick..."
DeletePurple, at what point did you first become aware that the incident had resulted in damage?
ReplyDeleteAfter we got unstuck from the anchor line and I had reattached the rudder we did a penalty turn and crossed the line again. Then I had a look at the side were we touched the committee-vessel. We have some paint scratches and on dent in the hull.
DeleteJos, my question was actually to Purple, not Red, but I think Red's answer serves my purpose thanks.
DeleteThe next two deadlines have been extended by 24 hours!
ReplyDeleteQuestion to PURPLE:
ReplyDeleteWhen did you realize there was damage to RED and/or the RC boat?
Purple: "When I read the copy of the protest before the hearing"
DeleteHello Jos,
ReplyDeleteI posted this question last night from an iphone, I guess it didn't work... The question was to Purple: at the moment of the incident, what did you see happen to Red.
I hope you can still answer it in the first round of answers.
Thanks
Purple: "I didn't see him hooking the anchor line. After we've finished and crossed the line completely, I saw Red hanging next to the committee boat."
DeletePurple: when and how did you become aware of Red having sustained damage or injury?
ReplyDeletePurple: "When I read the copy of the protest before the hearing"
DeleteQuestion to Red:
ReplyDeleteCould you please tell us if someone got injured during the incident?
Steviekouris
RED: "Nobody got injured"
DeleteHow did it come about that you received help with the rudder?
ReplyDeleteRED: "I detached the rudder from the stern to get lose. But then I accidentally dropped it in the water. We came away from the committee vessel and had to get the spinnaker down. By the time we were done, we had drifted some distance. The rubber-boat from the RC brought our rudder back and I reattached it. Then we did a penalty turn and finished again."
DeleteRed, please reconstruct the interaction you had with the crew of the committee boat and the rubber boat (words and actions).
ReplyDeleteRED: "They helped us by keeping the boat of the committee boat to prevent further damage. The crew on the rubber-boat picked up my rudder when I dropped it. If they hadn't we would not have been able to steer clear of the rocks downwind"
DeletePlease could the crew of the support boat that recovered Red's rudder be called as witnesses to answer the following question: "Why did you recover Red's rudder and take it back to them?" (And if they can't be called as witnesses, is anyone else in the room able to provide an answer to this question).
ReplyDelete"We recovered the rudder after the crew of the committee boat told us it was in the water. We brought it back to them, but we were not expecting them to be able to sail on. We were expecting to have to tow them home"
DeleteQuestion to RC:
ReplyDeletePlease describe what help, if any, the crew of the finish boat gave to RED.
RC: "Two people on board the finish vessel fended of the boat to keep it from damaging it and the committee boat any further. The skipper told the rubber boat about the rudder in the water and to pick it up"
DeleteQuestion to Red:
ReplyDeleteHow far were you from the committee boat when your rudder hooked up on the anchor line?
Grey Bear
RED: "If the rudder hadn't hooked the line we would have cleared the finish boat by a meter or so, passing almost parallel"
DeleteQuestion to the race committee:
ReplyDeleteCan you please describe in details the help given to Red and when exactly it occurred?
Steviekouris
Already answered
DeleteTo the RC: after Red's bow crossed the finishing line and before Red and the finish boats touched, was there a moment when no part of Red's hull, crew or equipment was on the finishing line?
ReplyDeleteRC: "I really couldn't say. Perhaps they were but we were not watching that. Two crew members were busy fending of the boat and the others recording the boats coming in"
DeleteFirst question – The Race Committee should record the time of Red’s second crossing of the finish line for her finish, but also keep a note of the time of the first crossing.
DeleteValidity of Red’s protest
Facts
Red did not hail protest
The incident resulted in contact between Red and the finish boat whereby paint was chipped off Red’s bow and off her front starboard side.
Red and Purple were both not aware of the damage until after Red finished racing.
Conclusion
Red’s protest against Purple is invalid.
Decision
Red’s protest against Purple is closed
Facts regarding the RC’s protest against Red
Red and Purple were sailing on a broad reach on port tack towards the starboard end of the finish line.
When Purple was approximately 5 hull lengths from the line, Red became overlapped from astern.
When Purple reached the zone of the starboard finish boat, Red remained overlapped but behind, to leeward.
When Red crossed the bow of the finish boat, her rudder got caught in the finish boat’s anchor rode.
From the time the overlap began to the time Red’s rudder got caught, Red and Purple had sailed straight parallel courses, half a boat length apart..
Purple and then Red crossed the finishing line.
Before Red could clear the finish line, the anchor rode pulled her back, causing contact between Red and the finish boat.
The crew of the finish boat pushed Red away to avoid further damage.
Red removed her rudder to free herself from the anchor rode, but her crew accidently dropped the rudder into the water.
Red requested assistance from the finish boat to recover her rudder. The rudder was recovered by a mark boat.
Once Red reattached her rudder, she sailed back on the course side of the line, completed a 1 turn penalty, and then re-crossed the finish line to finish.
Conclusions
While Purple was overlapped to windward of Red, she kept clear.
Red was entitled to mark room at the finish boat, but Purple did not give her room to sail to the mark. Purple broke rule 18.2(b).
Purple did not give Red room between her and the anchor rode, which was an obstruction. Purple broke rule 19.2(b).
It was not reasonably possible for Red to have avoided contact with the finish boat. She did not break rule 14.
Red broke rule 31 by touching the finish boat while still racing.
Red was compelled to break rule 31 by Purple breaking rules 18.2(b) & 19.2(b), and Red is exonerated under rule 64.1(c).
Red received outside assistance from the finish boat crew, pushing the boats apart, but that assistance did not break rule 41 because it was done to help Red get clear, under rule 41(c)
Red broke rule 41 by receiving outside assistance from the mark boat to recover her rudder.
Red was not compelled to break rule 41 by Purple breaking rule 18.2.
Red’s 1 turn penalty was not an appropriate penalty for breaking rule 41.
Rules Applicable
11, 14, 18.2(b), 19.2(b), 31, 41, 44.1, 61.1(a)(3), 64.1(c), definitions of “mark”, “mark room”, “obstruction” and “racing”.
Decision
Red is DSQ
Note: If this was a real protest situation, I would consider lodging a protest against Purple under rule 60.3(a)(2), based on the information obtained from the RC protest. I assume that for this exercise, we are only to write facts and conclusions in regard to the protests mentioned in the problem.
Score 6 points.
DeleteAs soon as you declare the first protest invalid, you cannot go back to any other issue than the one alleged to have been broken in the second one, i.e. 'outside help'
That could only happen if you had done what you considered in your note.
If Purple is keeping clear, she is also giving mark-room. The course of Red indicates that she was perfectly happy to be able to sail to the mark...
What about rule 19.1?
I've deducted further points for not considering redress, and giving Red back her second place.
Jos
DeleteThe relevance of looking at rules 11, 18.2 and 19.2 was that if Red had sailed into the anchor rode as a consequence of Purple breaking those rules, then the questions of exoneration and (if damage) redress would arise for Red. It's not a matter of opening up issues from the invalid protest. It's a matter of the causation of Red's predicament.
Hence, penalising Red for rule 31 is a wrong result, but unless you reach a conclusion about Purple breaking rules, you have to penalise Red (unless you grant redress). The breaking of rule 31 and rule 41 occurred in the same incident, as the rudder was lost when Red was hard up against the side of the finish boat. Therefore, the protest is about rule 31 as well.
It doesn't follow that if Purple was keeping clear, she was also giving mark room. One is a question of her course and the other is a question of space. Just because Red was happy sailing a particular course does not mean she was given the necessary space - speculation about whether she would of taken extra space had it become available is irrelevant.
What about rule 19.1? The finish boat was a mark. The anchor rode was an obstruction. You don't give a boat room to sail to a mark if you force them into an obstruction in front of it.
It is only appropriate to consider redress for Red, after considering the question of exoneration. The problem Red has is that the rudder was lost as a consequence of her crew dropping it over the side. It wasn't lost as a necessary result of Red's contact with the anchor rode. She can't be exonerated for outside assistance due to her own fault in dropping the rudder. If that is the case, then questions of redress doesn't even arise.
I take it that you would have granted redress over an alleged improper action of the race committee. Where is the evidence for that? The diagram shows the anchor itself is about 1.5 boat lengths from the finish boat, which is not unusual and we don't know how shallow it was. The race committee let out 5 meters to do that, but there is no evidence that this was a bad decision. Buoys often aren't attached to anchor lines, and to say that buoys need to be will require rewriting the RO manual. It seems a big call, simply on that evidence, to then say that the race committee made an error in terms of r 62, and adjust everyone's scores. However, Red was at fault anyway for dropping the rudder and letting it drift.
I'll try to answer you arguments one by one.
DeleteLike I stated in the post these would normally be discussed before reaching a mutual agreement. Since this challenge is not under "normal circumstances" I can only give you my opinion.
Like I stated in my answers the first protest is invalid. Therefore done, out, is no more.
The RC protested for breaking rule 41, outside help. You must limit you protest to that issue. You should read Case 80.
So that means any issue why Red touched, rule 31, rule 11, 18, 19 etc. or if Purple was at fault are no longer an issue. Only that Red received outside help and if that was breaking a rule.
In my opinion if there is an overlap (read enough wiggle room) the windward boat has a first obligation that is to keep clear. If she's not doing that how can there be enough mark-room?
On redress: That is always a judgement call. I think boats should be able to sail the whole course, without any obstacles, hidden or otherwise, that are controlled by the RC. Would you give redress of an anchor line of a mark was drifting and a boat was entangled in it and then touched the mark?
Yes, Red dropped her anchor. But if she would not have been entangled in the line, that would never had happened.
Jos,
DeleteI kind of disagree with your last statement "if she would not have been entangled in the line, that would never had happened."
I think it would never have happened if the helmsman was more careful and not because she got entangled with the anchor line. We cannot deduct your last statement from anywhere in their testimonies.
Steviekouris
1) What should the RC record for Red’s finish?
ReplyDelete"Red hooked the anchor rode with its rudder, with its bow just across the finish line."
Although Red touched a mark after having crossed the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, she was still racing, since she had not yet cleared the finishing line and marks, and thus broke rule 31 when she touched the mark (ref E001 Q&A 2006-002). She finished only after taking the penalty under rule 44.2 (definition of Finish) and crossing the finish line in the correct direction.
* The RC should record Red as finishing in last place.
2) Is the protest by Red valid?
Red did not inform the protestee according to rule 61.1(a) (did not hail protest). The damage was not obvious to Purple (she only found out about the damage from the protest form), so the exception in 61.1(a)(3) does not free Red from the requirements of 61.1(a).
* Protest invalid; hearing is closed.
3) Protest: RC vs Red (valid under 61.1(b) IF the RC informed Red of the protest within the protest time limit)
FACTS FOUND
- Red sailed a broad reach, on port tack, towards the finish
- The finish mark to be left to starboard was a committee boat, which was anchored using a long anchor rode.
- Red hooked the anchor rode with its rudder, with its bow just across the finish line.
- The anchor rode was unusually long because of shallow waters. It was not marked by a buoy or any other means.
- Neither Red nor Purple realized that the anchor rode was shallower than should be expected.
- Red was hung alongside, and touching, the finish boat, with the crew in the water hanging on the side of the Fireball, for over one minute, and had to cast off its rudder to get free.
- There was minor damage to both Red and the finish boat.
- The crew of the committee boat helped Red by keeping the boat away from the committee boat to prevent further damage.
- The crew of a mark boat recovered Red's rudder after learning that it was in the water, and brought it back to Red.
- Red reattached the rudder, took a One-Turn Penalty, came back and re-finished in last place.
CONCLUSIONS AND RULES THAT APPLY
- Red received outside help from the crew of the committee boat after a collision to get clear. Red thus did not break rule 41 because of this; see rule 41(b).
- Red received outside help from the crew of the mark boat to retrieve her rudder. This is not one of the exceptions of rule 41 (a)-(d). Red thus broke rule 41.
- Red touched a mark before clearing the finish and its marks, and thus broke rule 31.
- By taking a One-Turn Penalty, Red exonerated herself for her breach of rule 31. She is not exonerated for her breach of rule 41.
DECISION
Red is disqualified.
I thought about considering redress, since neither Purple nor Red realized the anchor rode would be problematic. Although a very long anchor rode which is unmarked, together with the committee boat being closest from the last mark and downwind from the last mark is a very bad choice by the race committee, I don't think it classifies as "an improper action or omission of the race committee." It also affected the whole fleet equally.
Score 7 points.
DeleteYou loose a point by doubting the validity of the RC-protest. The case stated that they informed Red within the time limit. Putting it up on the schedule is enough.
You loose another point for not restricting the second protest to outside help. Mark touching was NOT the issue.
And finally you loose a point by not giving back Red her finish position (2e)
*About the scoring, the RC should score Red, when she crosses the finish line after taking the penalty turn. Red should be scored 8th in the race
ReplyDelete** For convenience i will name CASE 1 the protest of Red against Purple and CASE 2 the protest of RC against Red.
CASE 1
Facts Found:
-The incident between Red and Purple(Fireballs) occurred at the finish line
-Red didn't hail 'protest'
-Contact occurred between Red and the RC finishing vessel, with no injuries
-After crossing the finish line for the second time, Red noticed that the paint at the bow and front starboard side of the boat got chipped
Conclusion:
The collision between Red and the RC vessel didn't result in damage or injury that was obvious to the boats involved as required by RRS 61.1(a)(3).
Red didn't inform the protestee at the first reasonable opportunity as required by RRS 61.1(a)
Decision:
Protest is INVALID
CASE 2
Facts Found:
-CASE 1 and CASE 2 were heard together by the Protest Committee, because they concern the same incident
-Red and Purple were approaching the finishing line to finish near the RC vessel, overlapped with Red on the inside and Purple on the outside
-Red's rudder got hooked in the anchor line of the RC vessel
-Contact occurred between Red and RC vessel with no injury
-Red detached the rudder to get loose from the anchor line
-Red skipper accidentally dropped the rudder in the water
-Red drifted away from the RC vessel
-Rubber boat from the RC brought back the rudder to Red
-Crew on RC vessel indicated to rubber boat to pick up the rudder
-Further downwind there were rocks
-Red reattached the rudder, took a penalty turn and crossed the finish line again.
Conclusion:
The Jury considered that Red was already clear, after the collision with the RC vessel, when she received help from the rubber boat.
Red received outside help, breaking RRS 41
Decision:
Red is DSQ in the race
Steviekouris
Score 7 points.
DeleteI've taken off 1 point for not considering redress (positive or negative) not giving Red back her finish and no considerations on rule 31.
The race committee should record the finishing position of Red both :
ReplyDeletewhen she initially crossed the finish line whilst in contact with the finish boat;
when she crossed the finish line after taking a penalty.
Validity
1. The protest incident was in the racing area. Red did not hail “Protest” at the first reasonable opportunity. The incident did not result in damage or injury that was obvious to the boats involved. Red's protest is invalid.
2. The Race Committee informed Red of their intention to protest within the time limit. The protest is based on an incident observed by the Race Committee. The Race Committee's protest is valid.
Facts found
The diagram provided is endorsed by the protest committee.
1. The committee boat on the finish line was anchored in shallow water. After anchoring the line was lengthened by an extra 5 metres. 3 or 4 metres of line was visible, but there was no other indication of the anchor line close to the surface. No measures were taken to sink the anchor line.
2. Two boat lengths from the zone (position 4), Red, on port, on a spinnaker reach to the finish line became overlapped from clear astern to leeward of Purple. Both boats were planing at about 10 knots.
3. Purple did not change course and crossed to windward of the committee boat at a distance of two boat lengths before finishing 1.5 boat lengths from the committee boat.
4. Red was crossing 1.5 boat lengths to windward of the committee boat when her rudder caught on the committee boat's anchor line.
5. Almost immediately, Red touched the committee boat, causing minor damage to both Red and the committee boat. Whilst still caught on the anchor line Red's bow crossed the finish line.
6. To get clear of the anchor line Red removed her rudder, which was then lost overboard.
7. After over a minute, Red got clear of the committee boat and cleared the finish-line. A patrol boat recovered her rudder and returned it. Red then took a penalty turn and returned to cross the finish-line a second time.
8. Red did not hail “Protest” at the time of the incident, but informed Purple of her intention to protest once back on shore.
Conclusions
1. Neither Red nor Purple could reasonably anticipate that there was a risk of entanglement with the anchor line when passing 1.5 boat-lengths to windward of the committee boat. The race committee did nothing to substantially reduce the risk of entanglement. This constitutes an improper action by the race committee (rule 62.1(a), see Q&A 2010-008, RYA Case 1989/10 provides guidance).
2. Purple, outside overlapped at the zone gave mark-room for Red to sail to the finish-line. Purple did not break rule 18.2(b).
3. As a result of becoming entangled with the anchor-line Red's score was made significantly worse, through no fault of her own, by an improper action of the race committee (rule 62.1(a)).
4. Red touched the finish boat, breaking rule 31, as a direct result of becoming entangled with the anchor-line.
5. After crossing the finish-line for the first time, and clearing the finish-line, but before returning to cross the finish-line a second time, Red received outside help other than permitted by rule 41.
Decision
Red is granted redress as follows (rule 64.2(a):
Red is deemed to have finished when her bow crossed the finish line for the first time. Red finishes immediately after Purple, and should be scored accordingly;
Red is not penalised for breaking rule 31.
As a result of this redress, Red received outside help after she had finished and cleared the finish line. Rule 41 does not apply when boats are not racing.
Grey Bear
Score 9 points
DeleteYou didn't restrict the second protest to receiving outside help. Ooh, Purple does not only have to give mark room, she also has to keep clear.
RC recording of Red’s finish
ReplyDeleteRed should be recorded as finishing last (but RC should note that she was in second place when she made contact with the finish boat, in case there is a request for redress).
(Red was still racing when she touched the finish boat – defn ‘racing’. She then took a one-turn penalty under rule 44.2. She therefore didn’t finish until she crossed the finish line in the direction of the course from the last mark after taking that penalty – defn ‘finish’).
Facts found relevant to validity of Red’s protest
Incident happened as Fireballs Red and Purple approached the finish line to finish.
During incident Red made contact with finish boat.
At no point did Red hail ‘Protest’ (or display a red flag).
At the time of the incident Purple was less than 1 boat length away from Red.
Incident resulted in minor damage to Red and finish boat, but Red was not aware of this until after she had finished, and Purple was not aware until she read the protest.
Conclusion on validity of Red’s protest
Incident happened in the racing area and Red was involved. Red did not hail “Protest” at first reasonable opportunity, as required by rule 61.1(a). Purple was within hailing distance at the time and so 61.1(a)(1) does not apply. Damage was not obvious to Purple (or Red) and so 61.1(a)(3) does not apply.
(Damage was not serious and so 60.3(a)(1) does not apply.)
Decision on validity of Red’s protest
Protest invalid.
Facts found relevant to RC protest
(Note: Scope of RC protest is limited to receipt of outside help by Red).
Red (Fireball, sailing downwind) caught her rudder on the anchor line of the finish boat when approaching the finish line to finish.
Red collided with the finish boat.
Red removed her rudder to get clear of the anchor line of the finish boat, and then lost it overboard.
Red requested and was given assistance in getting clear of the finish boat by the crew of the finish boat.
Red’s rudder was recovered by a mark boat and returned to Red by that mark boat.
Red then took a one-turn penalty and re-crossed the finish line from the direction of the last mark.
Conclusions
(Red touched the finish boat (a mark) in breach of rule 31.)
Following her collision with the finish boat, Red was assisted to get clear by the crew of the finish boat – permitted by rule 41(b).
However Red also received outside help from a mark boat in breach of rule 41.
(Red took a one-turn penalty which is an applicable penalty for a breach of rule 31, but not for a breach of rule 41 (rule 44.1).)
Decision on RC protest
DSQ Red from race.
Zaphod
(I also considered whether a request for redress by Red claiming that her score was made significantly worse as a result of an improper action by the Race Committee (recovery and return of her rudder by the mark boat) would be likely to succeed, and concluded that it would not (rule 62.1(a)). Firstly, when there are rocks to leeward it is probably a proper action of the Race Committee to recover and return a lost rudder. Secondly, if Red had been able to recover the rudder herself she could have refused the help; since she did not, her breach of rule 41 is at least in part her own fault).
Score 8 points
DeleteYou covered almost all the issues, except giving Red back her finish position.
You specifically mention to restrict the second protest to rule 41, but then you still mention 31. But I've given you the benefit of the doubt because of the brackets. (no deduction)
You do however lose a point for not finding as fact that Red was close to rocks when her rudder was returned....
Jos, I'm struggling to see why the existence of the rocks is relevant to the protest; please would you explain? (As I noted in my addendum, I can see how it might be relevant to whether or not the mark boat should have provided help, but help to avoid danger is still outside help isn't it?)
DeleteYes, you are right, help to avoid danger is still outside help and breaks rule 41.
DeleteThat's why I brought up the SI. Sometimes there's a provision that allows a boat to receive outside help when in danger, and still continue to race, provided that the help is not in any way 'progress' in the race.
These SI's did have such a provision.....
Protest of Red against Purple
ReplyDelete-----------------------------------
Submitted within time limit. On shore, Red informed Purple that he intended to protest, but during and after the incident on the water Red never hailed “protest” or showed a red flag. Red had the following damage: paint got chipped at the bow and one dent in the hull from a subsequent contact with the RC boat. During the incident, Purple was within the hailing distance. Nobody got injured.
Conclusions and rules related to the validity of the protest: while Red did not have the obligation to display the red flag (RRS 61.1(a)(2)), Red should have hailed “Protest” at the first reasonable opportunity. The first reasonable opportunity was during the incident or immediately afterwards. The damage sustained by Red was not obvious to either Red or Purple, so RRS 61.1(a)(3) does not apply. Red did not fulfil the requirement of RRS 61.1(a).
Decision: protest is invalid; the hearing is closed.
Protest RC against Red
-----------------------------------
Submitted within time limit. Protest is valid.
FF:
1. Purple and Red are flying the spinnakers on a reach to finish.
2. 5 BL before the finishing line, Purple is clear ahead of Red.
3. 4 BL before the starboard-side finishing mark (RC boat), Red establishes inside overlap to 2 meters to leeward of Purple.
4. Both Purple and Red maintain their course.
5. When Red is half a BL before the finishing line, Purple finishes and Red hooks onto the anchor rode of the RC boat and comes to a standstill as its bow crosses the finishing line.
6. Red touches the finish boat before clearing the finishing line and receives help from the committee boat’s crew to get clear after the collision. There is minor damage to both Red and the finish boat.
7. Red’s crew detaches its rudder to get free, then loses it.
8. Red asks for help and the crew of a helper boat gives them the rudder
9. Red then take a One-Turn penalty, comes back and re-finishes in the last place.
Conclusions and rules that apply:
According to the definition of mark, anchor rode is not part of the mark. It is however an obstruction according to the definition of obstruction.
When Red maintained her course in the zone, Purple kept clear and gave mark-room to Red by maintaining her own course. Purple did not break RRS 18.2 (b) or RRS 19 or RRS 11.
Red then finished, but broke RRS 31 by making contact with the finish boat before clearing the finishing line. She then broke RRS 41 by receiving help from the crew of the rubber boat who handed the lost rudder. Red then cleared the finishing line and, according to the indication of Q&A 2006-002 can be considered as no longer racing. However, the definition of finish allows a boat to finish again after taking a penalty under RRS 44.2, which Red did, so the second finish was valid. Finally, one-turn penalty taken by Red was appropriate for breaking RRS 31, but not appropriate for breaking RRS 41.
Decision: Red is DSQ.
Score 5 points
DeleteWhere is the answer for the RC?
You considered rule 41 only half. A boat is still subject to the rules if she has to take a penalty for a touching a finish mark and cross the line again. It is not consistent to state that she was no longer racing and then DSQ her for receiving help during that time.
The second protest should be restricted to the issue of outside help. No 18,19 or 11 involved.
Did you think about redress at all?
Good point about restricting this protest to rule 41 only - thanks! But could you rate my answer again? I do think it is consistent.
DeleteThe answer for the RC is Red is DSQ = protest upheld.
As for the question of her still racing, I said "However, teh definition of finish allows a boat to finish again...", which is why she is DSQ for breaking RRS 41 before she finished again. I think this is consistent!
I did consider granting redress, but I didn't consider the RC's action as improper - there is no rule describing how the RC boat has to be anchored.
With the answer for the RC I meant the first question:
DeleteWhat should the RC record for Red’s finish?
You are right that you mentioned that in the conclusions, my mistake.
I understand what you mean about finishing again, but you wrote she was no longer racing!. That is wrong. She still racing otherwise she can't finish.
I'll adjust your score and give you 6 points.
Answer 1
ReplyDeleteThe RC should record both times when Red crossed the finish line from the direction of the last mark, but only the second crossing would count as 'finish', according to the definition.
Answer 2
Red's protest against Purple is not valid, since she did not hail 'protest' at the first reasonable opportunity. Flag is not required, but other exceptions in rule 61.1(a) did not apply. Shortly after Red touched the committee boat, Purple was still within hailing distance (rule 61.1(a)(1)). The damage was not obvious to both boats (rule 61.1(a)(3)).
Neither the race committee nor the protest committee may protest Purple, as a result of information arising from Red's invalid protest.
In the hearing of RC vs. Red, Purple may take part as a witness. Then the PC
may protest her, when they believe that she may have broken a rule (rule 60.3(a)(2)).
However the hearing must be limited to the particular incident alleged in the protest (CASE 80), which in this case was Red's affair with the committee boat, Purple may be connected to that.
Fact Found
Two Fireballs, Red and Purple were broad reaching at a speed of 10 knots on port tack on parallel courses toward the starboard (committee boat) end of the finishing line. Purple was slightly ahead and 4m to windward of Red.
When Purple was two hull length from the visible part of the anchor rode of the committee boat, Red became overlapped to leeward of Purple. 3-4 m of the anchor line was visible above the water.
Neither boat changed course until after crossing the finishing line. Red made no attempt to avoid the anchor rode.
Purple barely cleared the anchor rode and finished half a boat length ahead of Red.
Red hooked the anchor rode with its rudder, with its bow just across the finish line.
Then Red touched the committee boat. The crew of the committee boat helped her to get free. Red's rudder fell into the water. A mark-boat picked up and gave back their rudder.
Red made a one turn penalty, then re-finished.
There was damage to Red and to the committee boat. Purple became aware of the damage when she was ashore.
Conclusions
Red became overlapped with Purple just after Purple reached the zone. Red was not entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b). Purple did not compel Red to make contact with the anchor rode.
Red was still racing when she touched the finish boat. She took the appropriate penalty for touching a mark (rule 31).
Red, while racing, received help from the committee boat to get clear. Red broke rule 41.
Red, while racing, received help from the mark-boat. Red broke rule 41.
Decision
Red DSQ
Score 6 points
DeleteI've deducted a point for the wrong conclusion about receiving help to get clear. That is permitted under rule 41(b)
No consideration about redress, Red did not get back her second place and not restricting the second protest to outside help' is another 3 point deduction...
Validity:
ReplyDeleteRED did not hail “protest” to PURPLE.
The damage was not obvious.
The requirements of rule 61.1(a)(3) are not met.
RED’s protest of PURPLE is not valid.
The RC’s protest of RED arises from an incident the committee observed in the racing area.
The RC informed RED after the race within the time limit.
RC’s protest of RED is valid (rule 61.1(b)).
Facts Found:
1. Approaching the finish on a broad reach, RED was steering a course to pass close to the finish boat, leaving it to Stb.
2. RED’s rudder hooked the finish boat anchor rode.
3. RED finished, but before she cleared the finishing line, there was contact between RED and the finish boat.
4. There was minor damage to both RED and the finish boat.
5. The crew of the finish boat fended off RED.
6. RED cast off its rudder to get free.
7. After getting clear of the finish boat RED requested and received help from a mark boat to retrieve his rudder.
8. RED took a One-Turn Penalty, then re-finished in last place.
Conclusions:
1. RED broke rule 31. Her one turn penalty was an appropriate penalty.
2. Help retrieving her rudder was not help “to get clear”. Rule 41(b) does not apply.
3. RED breaks rule 41.
4. Force applied by the crew of the RC boat to RED for RED to get clear is allowed by 42.3(g). RED does not break rule 42.
Decision:
RED is DSQ (rule 41).
Score 6 points.
DeleteYou never answered the finish question.
I've also deducted points for not restricting the second protest to 'outside help', for not considering redress, giving Red back her finish position.
Two points arising - which would have been discussed and settled before making a decision in a real Jury situation
ReplyDelete1. Case 80 states that "a protest or a requset for redress must be limited to the allegeded incident, action or omission". It does not require that the request be limited to any particular rule!
In this example what was the incident? Was it an isolated case of a boat being given outside help to recover a lost rudder? Or was this outside help only a small part of a much longer incident that began when Red got entangled on a badly laid anchor-line?
I would argue that when a allegation of receiving outside help is considered it is relevant to consider why outside help is required in the first place. If it is established that outside help is required as a direct and immediate result of an earlier part of the same incident then surely it is right and proper for the protest committee to include this in the hearing and in their decision?
2. On rule 1.1. Rule 1.1 does not apply to Red, as she is the boat requiring help. This rule put an obligation on any boat or competitor to give all possible help to Red.
Does rule 1.1 apply to a race committee boat, her crew, or a patrol boat or crew? If this so, then the race committee, via the patrol boat, met the requirement to give help when Red was in danger.
Rule 1.1 does not Red exoneration from a breach of rule 41 while racing. If a boat or competitor gives Red help that is not covered by the exceptions in rule 41 then Red would break rule 41 and the only penalty she can take is to retire.
Once it is established that Red required help, she cannot herself break rule 1.1.
Grey Bear
This is RED......it's a nice rules' quiz......
ReplyDelete1) However, we were moving at 13-14 knots and accelerating. The "deceleration" was violent. I face planted into the forward cockpit, and my crew clean disappeared around the headstay, swinging on her trapeze, as we began to slide towards the committee, now prisoner of the anchor rode. By the time we were even "heads-up" again, PURPLE was 100 yards away and on her way home. So forget about your "hail" stuff. "Protest" was hailed as soon as the boat was in control again. Any reasonable judge would hear the protest.
2) On the approach to the line, PURPLE bore down on us and there was no where to go.....any reasonable judge would consider redress.
3) Whoever you are who is grading the answers, good job, and all you low grade getters.....well, bad job.
Signed....RED.
Thanks Red, but I just followed the rules as I see them.
DeleteDear RED.... so why in your initial protest form you didn't ask for redress?
DeleteSteviekouris