Friday, 24 February 2012

LTW 2012 Winter Challenge E02/24: YES/NO

Another Friday, another Challenge in our Winter Series. This time I'm presenting you with two animations.

Protest between two F18's. Purple and Grey at the first upwind mark to be left to port. Protest is delivered in time and has all necessary details are filled in. Grey protest Purple for not keeping clear under rule 13. The hearing is scheduled and started. The PC declares the protest valid.

The situation depicted in the animation ONE is what GREY tells in the hearing room.

The situation depicted in the animation TWO is what PURPLE tells in the hearing room.

You can ask two questions to both parties. (that is two to Grey and two to Purple)
Deadline for Question 1 (one to each) is Monday 23:59, and Question 2 (one to each) Wednesday 23:59

Your challenge:
Write the facts found, conclusion and decision of the protest.


Deadline for the previous Episode 02/17 is midnight tonight (23:59hours)

53 comments:

  1. Question to PURPLE:
    How long did you hold head to wind at the mark, and why?

    Question to GREY:
    What was the position of PURPLE’s jib when you bore away?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Purple: "I staid head to wind until I saw Grey bear away behind me"

      Grey: "I bore away about 6 meters from Red when his jib was already flapping on his port side"

      Delete
    2. Sorry, Red = Purple (my mistake not Grey's)

      Delete
  2. Grey: according to your drawing, Purple passed head-to-wind before you sailed astern of her. Please tell me what you base that statement on.

    Purple: according to your drawing, you did not pass head-to-wind until after grey sailed astern of you. Please tell me what you base that statement on.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "I was close behind Purple to catch up so he couldn't tack. I was watching closely what he was going to do. His jib was tacking when I bore away"

      Purple: "I knew I couldn't complete my tack before Grey would be behind me. So I made sure I never did before he bore away"

      Delete
  3. Question for Grey - While your diagram gives an overview, I'm interested in what you actually saw at the time from your own boat. What did you actually see at the time of the incident which lead to your conclude that Purple had passed head to wind at position 5?

    Question for Purple - I'm interested to know what happened after position 7 when you bore off to the next mark, including your relative position with Grey. Therefore, can you either draw a diagram that shows that, or alternatively tell me all the details so that I can draw a diagram myself?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "Like I said I was particularly watching his jib to see if he would tack or not. In my view he was and then I had to steer down to go behind"

      Purple: "When Grey had passed behind me I bore off to go to the next mark. I wasn't particularly watching Grey any more since he had to give me mark-room including room to tack. After position seven we speeded up and sailed on a broad reach"

      Delete
  4. To Purple: In your depiction of the incident, you luffed up to head to wind and held that course for some time whilst Grey passed behind you. You say that you didn't go past head to wind. But, how is it that you were able to keep an eye out for Grey and also keep an eye on your sail and still be so sure that it didn't go past head to wind?

    To Grey: In your depiction of the incident, Purple passed head to wind between positions 4 and 5, how is it that you noticed this happen whilst at the very same moment you were manoeuvring to avoid hitting Purple?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Purple: "I steered the boat head to wind and kept it there. My crew was looking back at Grey and told me when he was close. Then I looked and waited before I put my helm down untill I saw him bore away"

      Grey: "I was looking forward at Purple and steered straight. We had the boat trimmed so that rudder was not pulling that much. I was watching his jib and saw it tack. Then I had to bear away, but only 10 degrees or so"

      Delete
  5. To Purple: Please give me a complete description of how you carried out the tacking.
    To Grey: What was your speed on entering the zone?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Purple: "Like I said in my diagram. It was a normal tack except that we waited head to wind until Grey was behind us. We did lose a couple of seconds but made up for them when Grey had to bear off to go behind us"

      Grey: "I think about 6-8 knots"

      Delete
  6. The same question to both Purple and Grey:

    Could you please describe the incident giving details of boat speed, distances between boats and other information you believe to be relevant?

    Grey Bear

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Purple: "You mean anything that wasn't in my diagram. I think that says it all, actually"

      Grey: "No it doesn't, you passed head to wind when I bore off"
      Purple: "That is not true. I waited head to wind"
      Grey: "No you didn't!"
      Purple: "Yes"
      Grey: "No"

      Delete
  7. Grey, I understand from your diagram that you believe Purple luffed and then tacked without pausing head-to-wind, and in particular, had already passed head-to-wind before you bore away. What did you see and when that leads you to this view?

    Purple, I understand from your diagram that you believe you paused for a number of seconds head-to-wind before completing your tack, and in particular that you didn't pass head to wind until Grey was already steering to pass astern of you. How can you be sure that you didn't pass head-to-wind, even momentarily, before that time?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "His jib had tacked to port"

      Purple: "Are you suggesting I can't hold a boat head to wind for five seconds?"

      Delete
  8. Question to Grey:
    What was the distance between your boat and Purple boat at the moment when you reached head to wind at the mark (at position 7)?

    Question to Purple:
    Please describe, what kind of boathandling (steering, sheeting, etc.) did you do while you were at the mark at positions 5 to 7?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "In position 7 I was tacking"

      Purple: "When I bore off I eased the sheet a little but not much since the heading was only ten degrees off. Then I headed back up and tacked"

      Delete
  9. Happiness Room6 March 2012 at 08:17

    Question for Gray: Tell me how your course changed from the time Red luffed up to head to wind until Red started tacking. Feel free to elaborate.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "I saw him head up, then I was still sailing straight. I bore off about ten degrees to go behind him and after my bow had passed his starboard stern, headed up again and started tacking"

      Delete
  10. Grey: please be as precise as possible about the relative timing of the following two events: 1) the moment purple started bearing noticeably off towards the next mark and 2) the moment you stopped bearing off to avoid purple.

    Purple: please be as precise as possible about the position of grey relative to you when you passed head-to-wind.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "I stopped bearing off when my port hull was behind Purples starboard stern. From that moment I headed up again to tack. I think Purple was already bearing off towards the next mark. She was at about finished with her tack."

      Purple: "I don't know how to be more precise. I waited until Grey was behind me before passing head to wind. So Grey was just about passed behind, when I did"

      Delete
  11. Same question to both PURPLE and GREY:
    Do you have a witness who can describe their view of the incident?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Question to Grey: Can you tell us precisely what you mean by "His jib was tacking"?

    Question to Purple : In the prevailing conditions how long can you hold your boat head to wind without losing way and beginning to move backwards?

    Grey Bear

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "I meant that his jib was already flapping on port side, indicating that he was passed head to wind."

      Purple: "I never stopped going forward, so I'd have to guess. Half a minute?"

      Delete
  13. Grey, did you see Purple complete her tack to a close-hauled course on starboard tack, and if so, how long after you bore away to pass astern of her do you estimate this happened?

    Purple, I was under the impression that it was difficult to tack a catamaran if you didn't do so in one smooth manoeuvre. Please could you explain how you managed to complete your tack on this ocassion given that you say you sailed head-to-wind for 5 seconds?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "After I'd passed behind I didn't watch Purple that close any more. We were busy with our own tack. I can't say for sure when Purple was on a close hauled course, we were almost head to wind ourselves"

      Purple: "We never stopped going forward, so I still could steer and get the boat to bear off"

      Delete
  14. Question to Grey:
    How long were you able to observe Purple's jib after the moment his jib first came to the port side?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Grey: "I watched Purple's jib until I bore off"

      Delete
  15. To Purple: you said that you waited head-to-wind before you put your helm down until you saw Grey bear away and Grey said he bore away 6 metres from you and at that time your jib was already on the port side. So where exactly was he when you put your helm down?

    To Grey: in your tack after bearing away, how long did it take you to get from a close-hauled course to head-to-wind?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Purple: "I think he was already behind me when I put my helm down"

      Grey: "I gained some speed bearing away so maybe three of four seconds? I didn't clock it"

      Delete
  16. Jos. Please ignore my earlier questions, which were sent without the benefit of the first lot of answers.

    Question to Purple - To what extent, if any, did you lose speed between position 4 through to position 7. Can you give a comparison in knots?

    Question to Gray - At position 5, how far from the center line of Purple's hull was her jib flapping?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Purple: "I slowed down, because I had to stay head to wind. But never lost forward motion completely. Maybe 2 knots?

      Grey: "I really do not know. It was on this side of the mast, that's for sure"

      Delete
  17. Jos. This is just a point of clarification about the answers given to Pelso's questions, rather than a further question of my own. It seems that Purple was giving an answer that would have given by someone on Gray's boats and vica versa (although Gray doesn't mention distances). To use an umpiring phrase, were they on their own boats?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Everybody was on their own boat.

      Delete
  18. Facts Found:
    1. PURPLE and GREY were approaching the first upwind mark to be left to port.
    2. Both were on port tack, sailing about 6-8 knots, on a course to pass close to the mark.
    3. PURPLE was clear ahead at the zone by 3 lengths.
    4. Initiating a tack, PURPLE luffed head to wind beside the mark.
    5. GREY bore away to avoid PURPLE when there was about 6 meters between the boats.
    6. In conflicting testimony:
    - GREY claims that PURPLE had passed head to wind before GREY bore away.
    - PURPLE claims that she held head to wind for 5 seconds, until after GREY avoided her.

    Conclusions:
    1. It is uncertain whether PURPLE had passed head to wind at the time GREY altered course to avoid her.
    2. The last point of certainty was that PURPLE had not.
    3. PURPLE’s diagram is accepted.
    4. GREY owed PURPLE mark-room (rule 18.2(b)).
    5. When GREY bore away, she was both keeping clear of PURPLE, who was ROW (rule 12), and giving mark-room.
    6. When GREY became overlapped outside of PURPLE, GREY continued to give PURPLE mark-room, including room to tack.
    7. PURPLE does not break rule 13.

    Decision:
    Protest is dismissed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You've chosen. That is a plus.
      But stating conflicting testimony as facts found is - at least in my opinion - not good. You should just stick to your first 5 facts found and conclude that Purple didn't pass head to wind.
      A bonus point for stating that mark-room included room to tack once Grey overlapped outside.

      Score 9 points

      Delete
  19. FACTS FOUND
    - On a bat to winward, Purple -P- approaches the first top mark, to be left to port, on port tack. She sails close-hauled, on a course to pass just leeward of the mark.
    - When P enters the zone, she is two boat lengths directly ahead of Grey -G-, who also sails on port tack and at a similar speed to P's.
    - At the mark, P luffs to head-to-wind. G is on a collision course with P.
    - G sees P's jib flapping on the port side of her mast, bears away to avoid P by passing behind her, and hails protest at the first reasonable opportunity.
    - As G is passing behind P, P bears away and rounds the mark.
    - No turns were taken (assumed, not wanting to "waste" questions).

    Diagram of Purple is endorsed by the committee.

    CONCLUSIONS AND RULES THAT APPLY
    There is more than reasonable doubt that P passed head-to-wind before G had born away to avoid her. An untrimmed jib will flap on both sides of the mast even if a boat has not passed head-to-wind. The "last point of certainty" also points to P not passing head-to-wind. P was thus not subject to rule 13. G shall keep clear of P under rule 12, give her mark-room under rule 18.2(b), and avoid contact under rule 14. She complied with all of these rules by bearing away and avoiding P. No rules were broken.
    DECISION
    Protest dismissed

    * I printed out and filled out most of a protest form this time. I hope I payed enough attention at the course :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Score 9 points.
      On a real protest form you do not have to explain your reasoning. You can, but it is not necessary.

      Delete
  20. Facts Found: Purple sailing on port entered the zone two boat lengths directly and clear ahead of Grey also on Port. At the mark Purple luffed head to wind; Grey was on a collision course with Purple. When Grey was 6m away from Purple, Grey bore off about 10 degrees and passed behind Purple. Purple bore away and passed head to wind as Grey passed behind her. Grey luffed and tacked after passing behind Purple.

    Rules that apply: 12 & 13

    Conclusion: At the last moment of certainty (position 4), Purple was sailing a course directly into the wind and Grey was on a collision course. Grey was required to ‘keep clear’ (RRS 12) and did so by bearing away to pass behind Purple. Once Grey was no longer on a collision course, Purple was free to pass head to wind and tack. Purple ‘kept clear’ whilst subject to rule 13 (definition of ‘keep clear’).

    Decision: No rules broken. Protest dismissed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You forgot to include rule 18.
      Score 7 points

      Delete
  21. Facts found:
    F18s, Purple and Grey, close-hauled on port tack approaching windward mark to be left to port, both on port tack layline. Purple ahead, with Grey approx 2 boat lengths astern when Purple enters the zone.

    When at the mark, Purple luffs head to wind.

    Grey continues close-hauled directly towards Purple until, when approx 1 boat length (6m) away from Purple, she believes she sees Purple’s jib tack. Grey then bears away passing approx 1m astern of Purple before tacking outside Purple.

    Purple meanwhile believes that she stayed head to wind, without passing head to wind, until after Grey had born away and started to pass astern of her, at which point she proceeded to complete her tack to round the mark.

    No contact.

    Impossible to determine with certainty, on basis of evidence available, whether Purple did or did not pass head to wind before Grey bore away to pass astern. Therefore, applying umpiring principle of ‘last point of certainty’ (see e.g. ISAF Q&A 2010-011), find as fact that Purple remained on port tack (last point of certainty) until after Grey had born away to pass astern.

    Conclusion
    Purple entered the zone clear ahead; Grey therefore required to give Purple mark-room at least until Purple passed head to wind (18.2(b) and (c)).

    Purple gave Grey room to keep clear when she luffed (rule 16.1) (but would have been exonerated under rule 18.5(b) even if she hadn’t).

    Grey initially required to keep clear under rule 12, which she did, and also to give Purple mark-room under rule 18.2(b), which she also did.

    Purple required to keep clear of Grey under rule 13 once she passed head to wind (found as fact to be after Grey was passing astern of Purple), which she did.

    Decision
    Protest dismissed.

    Zaphod

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Writing down what a boat 'believes' is not finding facts.
      But you've chosen and I like your reference Q&A.

      Score 8 points

      Delete
  22. Facts Found

    Endorsing diagram 1 (Grey)

    At a windward mark to be left to port:

    1. Purple, on port, entered the zone two boat lengths ahead of Grey, also on port.
    2. At the mark Purple luffed head to wind and slowed.
    3. Grey, sailing at 6-8 knots, was one boat length from Purple, and on a collision course with her, as Purple reached head to wind.
    4. Grey bore away about 10° and passed close astern of Purple.
    5. Purple passed head to wind as, or immediately after, Grey started to bear away.
    6. Having passed head to wind, Purple then bore away below close-hauled on starboard.
    7. After passing within 1 metre of Purple's stern, Grey luffed head to wind outside her. Grey at this point was 1 boat length from the mark.

    Conclusions

    1. Purple was, initially, right of way boat (rule 12) and entitled to mark room (18.2(b)).
    2. As Purple was clear ahead, her entitlement to mark-room did not include room to tack (definition mark-room).
    3. When Purple changed course at the mark she gave room to Grey to keep clear and give mark room (rule 16.1). If she had not given room she would have been exonerated under rule 18.5 (b).
    4. Grey was required to take avoiding action to keep clear and give mark-room before Purple became subject to rule 13. Grey kept clear, and gave mark-room, by bearing away.
    5. When Purple passed head to wind, rule 18 ceased to apply (rule 18.1(a)). Grey acquired right of way (rule 13) by Purple's actions. Grey was not required initially to give Purple room to keep clear (rule 15). However, rule 16.1 would apply if Grey subsequently changed course.
    6. Grey was so close to Purple that could not luff and give Purple room to keep clear until Grey had sailed beyond the stern of Purple.
    7. When Grey did change of course she give Purple room to keep clear (rule 16.1). Purple kept clear by completing her tack.

    Decision

    No rule was broken.



    Grey Bear

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Very good facts found, but I want the conclusions much shorter.
      I'm giving you a bonus point for including "room to tack"
      Next time in your decision: Protest dismissed.

      Score 9 + 1 = 10 points

      Delete
  23. Facts found

    Purple and Gray were close hauled on port tack, sailing towards the windward mark, to be rounded to port. Both were on the port lay-line, travelling 6 to 8 knots.
    When Purple reached the zone she was two boat lengths clear ahead of Gray.
    When Purple was abreast of the mark, she luffed up to head to wind, and held that course for approximately 6 seconds. During that time she remained less than a boat width from the mark.
    When Gray was one boat length from Purple, she bore away 10 degrees to sail astern of Purple who was head to wind. While Gray bore away, Purple’s hull never passed head to wind.
    After Gray finished bearing away, she sailed astern of Purple. Purple then passed head to wind and bore off on starboard tack to round the mark.

    Conclusions

    At the time Gray needed to take avoiding action, Purple had the right of way pursuant to rule 12 because she was clear ahead, on the same tack.
    At that time, Gray, the boat clear astern, kept clear of Purple and complied with rule 12.
    Until Purple tacked, Gray was also required to give her mark room, under rule 18.2, and did so.
    When Purple luffed up to head to wind, she gave Gray room to keep clear, and complied with rule 16.1.
    Later, after Purple passed head to wind, she was required to keep clear of Gray under rule 13, and did so.

    Rules applicable

    12, 13, 16.1, 18.2

    Decision

    No rule was broken

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. so your decision should also be: Protest dismissed.
      And what about rule 18.2(c), switching of 18.2(b)?

      Score 9 points

      Delete
  24. Facts Found
    1. Purple and Grey approached the windward mark to be left to port on the port tack layline, at a speed of 6-8 knots, with Purple 2 hull length ahead of Grey.
    2. At the mark Purple headed up to head-to-wind and remained head-to-wind, going slowly ahead for 1.5-2 seconds, until Grey bore away 10 degrees to pass astern of her.
    3. After that moment Purple bore away to starboard tack and Grey headed back up but remained behind Purple, then they rounded the mark.

    Conclusions
    1. Purple, as clear ahead boat at the zone, was entitled to mark-room under rule 18.2(b) until she passed head-to-wind (rule 18.2(c)). Grey complied with rule 18.2(b) by bearing away behind Purple.
    2. After Purple passed head-to-wind she kept clear of Grey under rule 13.
    No rule was broken.

    Decision
    Protest dismissed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Short, correct and to the point.
      I'm only missing RRS 12.

      Score 9 points

      Delete
  25. FF:
    Purple and Grey, both on the port tack, approach the first windward mark to be left to port.
    On entering the zone, Purple is clear ahead of Grey. Grey, two boat lengths behind, has 6-8 knots of speed.
    Purple heads up into the wind, but knowing that Grey is close behind, does not pass head-to-wind and keeps head to wind for about 5 seconds longer than. Greys bears off 10 degrees to avoid the collision, sails behind Purple and protests. At this time, Purple puts his help over, finishes her tack and bears away to a broad reach course. At no time does Purple stop her movement over the water. After passing behind Grey, Purple also tacks and then goes to a broad reach course around the mark. There is no contact.

    Decision:
    No rules were broken. Protest rejected.
    Grey has to initially keep clear of Purple according to RRS 12 as the clear-astern boat. This she does by bearing off 10 degrees to pass behind Purple, who is decelerated by heading into the wind. Purple is also initially entitled to mark room according to RRS 18.2(b), which includes the room to sail to the mark and to sail her proper course while at the mark, but not the room to tack. By heading into the wind, Purple sails above her proper course, but it does not break rule 18, or – as she is clear ahead – rule 17. As Purple passes head-to-wind, she becomes subject to RRS 13 and from this moment she has to keep clear. As this happens after Grey bore away and when the two boats are not on a collision course, Purple keeps clear by bearing away to a close-hauled course and does therefore not break RRS 13.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You write your conclusions in your decision and they are too elaborate and your reference to proper course is beside the point. But you've chosen.
      A protest can never be rejected. It is upheld or dismissed.

      Score 8 points.
      (You're getting there!)

      Delete
  26. Facts
    *On the first beat Red approached the windward mark on the port tack lay line. Gray was following the same path as Red but 4 boat lengths behind Red
    *At the mark Red luffed head to wind and held that heading for 4 seconds, Gray altered her course when she was 2 boat lengths from Red. Gray passed astern of Red with no contact.

    Conclusions
    Gray, clear astern, had room to keep clear of Red after Red changed it course (R 12 and 16.1)

    Decision
    Grays protest is denied
    No rule was broken

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A little bit too short. I can't find in your facts if Grey had to alter course before or after Purple passed head to wind.
      Also you don't mention rule 18 at all.
      Your conclusion is also too short and does not cover the whole situation.
      But you've chosen.

      Score 5 points.

      Delete

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...