Boris Kuzminov is asking me about a situation at a windwark mark trough his facebook page
Messages - a situation on windward mark: "- Verzonden met Google Toolbar"
The situation is in a friendly Match Race between the Blue and Yellow boat, and it looks like Blue wants to slow down the other, but that does not succeed.
See also http://live.vsk-match.com/vsk_match/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1764&sid=2f3ca81b5e4d518973143c7b99e0bee3
Right, this is how I see this:
In position one, Blue enters the zone (which should have been two hull lenghts in a MR) clear ahead. That means that she's entitled to mark room. Besides that, she's also right of way boat.
In position two, Blue is still entitled to mark room - she has luffed but has not passed head to wind - and Yellow still must keep clear.
In position three; the same applies. Blue is ROW either under rule 11 or under rule 12. Yellow is still keep clear boat.
In position four, Blue is no longer right of way boat. She becomes keep clear boat under rule 11. She's still however entitled to mark-room. If she is taking that Mark room she shall be exonerated for not keeping clear under rule 11, a rule in section A (RRS 18.5(a))
Because Blue never passes head to wind, so the second sentence in rule 18.2(c) never applies, she keeps being entitled to mark- room. Rule 18.3 also never applies because boats are not approaching the mark on opposite tacks.
In position five the boom of Blue is touching Yellow. Blue does not keep clear. Having mark-room she must be able to sail to the mark and sail her proper course at the mark. Yellow is preventing her from doing that.
Therefore Blue is exonerated for not keeping clear and Yellow penalized for not giving mark-room
Yellow Penalty.
Messages - a situation on windward mark: "- Verzonden met Google Toolbar"
The situation is in a friendly Match Race between the Blue and Yellow boat, and it looks like Blue wants to slow down the other, but that does not succeed.
See also http://live.vsk-match.com/vsk_match/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1764&sid=2f3ca81b5e4d518973143c7b99e0bee3
Right, this is how I see this:
In position one, Blue enters the zone (which should have been two hull lenghts in a MR) clear ahead. That means that she's entitled to mark room. Besides that, she's also right of way boat.
In position two, Blue is still entitled to mark room - she has luffed but has not passed head to wind - and Yellow still must keep clear.
In position three; the same applies. Blue is ROW either under rule 11 or under rule 12. Yellow is still keep clear boat.
In position four, Blue is no longer right of way boat. She becomes keep clear boat under rule 11. She's still however entitled to mark-room. If she is taking that Mark room she shall be exonerated for not keeping clear under rule 11, a rule in section A (RRS 18.5(a))
Because Blue never passes head to wind, so the second sentence in rule 18.2(c) never applies, she keeps being entitled to mark- room. Rule 18.3 also never applies because boats are not approaching the mark on opposite tacks.
In position five the boom of Blue is touching Yellow. Blue does not keep clear. Having mark-room she must be able to sail to the mark and sail her proper course at the mark. Yellow is preventing her from doing that.
Therefore Blue is exonerated for not keeping clear and Yellow penalized for not giving mark-room
Yellow Penalty.
Many thanks Jos!
ReplyDeleteI thought the same, but there are two doubts:
1) in pos.#2 Yellow passes HTW - the boats appear on various tacks and r.18 is switched off according to the rule 18.1(а)& (b)..."Because Blue never passes head to wind, so the second sentence in rule 18.2(c) never applies, she keeps being entitled to mark- room." - Whether it means that when Yellow again will be on the port tack will switched 18.2 (b) instead of 18.2(а)?
2) "Rule 18.3 also never applies because boats are not approaching the mark on opposite tacks." - it is right for fleet race. But the rule C.2.6 (=18.3 for match race) may be apply IMHO.
Boris,
ReplyDeleteOn point 1, team race call E11 makes it clear that 18.2(b) "has a memory" and it continues to apply even if 18 is turned off by Yellow's 1st tack then back on again with the 2nd tack.
On point 2, you make an interseting and I think valid point. The wording of C2.6 means that 18.3 (as modified) applies and turns off 18.2. Therefore MR 18.3(b) would apply and Yellow would be entitled to mark-room!! Not what the rules writers intended I expect.
Very interesting point about C2.6. However as I see 18.3(b) it refers to the "other boat" that is the boat that did not change tacks. Yellow is the boat that changed tacks so she is not the other boat and therefore not entitled to room (at least not from 18.3(b)
ReplyDeleteWhen Yellow first tacks in the zone (position 2), 18.2.c turns off 18.2.b, That ends Blues mark room rights. (when either boat passes head to wind, 18.2.b no longer applies)
ReplyDeleteThe team race call E 11 does not provide 'memory' The rights in that case were gained after the second tack.
When Yellow tacks back to port between Pos 3 and 4, we have two possibilities depending upon the boats being overlapped or not overlapped when the tack is complete or shortly thereafter, from astern. We cannot tell from the provided diagram.
If a new overlap is created when Yellow completes her tack to port, then Yellow is inside and leeward and Blue is outside and to weather. As Yellow's tack after Pos 3 in the zone complies with 18.3, she does not get mark room, but she cannot take Blue above close hauled, which she does not. Finally, we have a contact and a R 11 windward/leeward as the boats sail down past the mark. Blue as weather boat should have stayed clear.
If no overlap at the tack, but overlap from astern, then we have a R 17 and R 11 sitution. As the proper course appears to be downwind, Yellow to leeward sailed her proper course. So again we have a contact and a R 11 windward/leeward as the boats sail down past the mark. Blue as weather boat should have stayed clear.
Blue is at fault in either version.
John
This may be a simpler way of putting my case.
ReplyDeleteBlue over stood the mark.
When Yellow went past head to wind (pos 2), 18.2.c turns off 18.2.b. Blue loses mark room rights.
When Yellow tacks to port after Pos 3, R 18.3 apples. While Yellow does not get mark room, and she must not cause Blue above close hauled, and Blue to weather must stay clear of Yellow, to leeward, R 17 and R 11 apply.
Blue causes the foul. R 11
John
@Athwart: I not sure that r.18.2(b) "has a memory". In call E11 (& E10) Team race is spoken about changed r. 18.2(b) by Rule D1.1. (“…she later becomes clear ahead when another boat passes head to wind,..”). This change describes our situation, but it concerns ONLY for team races.
ReplyDelete@Andrew Rule C2.6(b): “…the boat that changed tack is entitled to markroom”.
@ball_hilary: 1) “either boat passes head to wind “ - you use invalid edition RRS, from 1.01.2010 this phrase in r.18.2(b) sounds so:” the boat entitled to markroom passes head to wind”.
2) In rule C2.6 (=18.3 for match race) It is spoken nothing about “above close hauled”.
@all: pls, remember it is the Match Race.
I too am also interested in this sentence (from an academic 'fleet racing' point of view).
ReplyDelete"Rule 18.3 also never applies because boats are not approaching the mark on opposite tacks."
Do you say this since when Yellow is on starboard, she has overstood the mark, and thus is 'sailing away' from the mark?
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Anyway, it seems to me that Appendix C2.6b applies. Yellow is entitled to mark-room and is also RoW.
B breaks rule 11.
DW
John said: "The team race call E11 does not provide 'memory'....". Oops sorry, wrong call number. I meant Call E10 - Answer 3. 18.2(b) does have a 'memory'.
ReplyDeleteHowever, that's irrelevant. The wording of C2.6 makes it applicable to this situation and turns off 18.2. C2.6(b) applies and clearly the non-tacking boat can luff to avoid an inside overlap so the tacking boat is entitled to mark-room.
Certainly not the expected outcome but hard to deny.
Please delete my comments on posts 4 & 5. They are quite wrong as I had forgotten about the 2010 addendum that changed R 18.2.c
ReplyDeleteThanks
John
This is an interesting point made by Boris.
ReplyDeleteI think you should send it in to the Raoid response group and see what comes out.
John said "when either boat passes head to wind, 18.2.b no longer applies"
ReplyDeleteThe wording for 18.2(c) was changed in late 2009. It now says "... However, if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b) ceases to apply."
John said "The team race call E11 does not provide 'memory'"
Sorry my mistake. It is team race call E10 (Q&A 3) that says that 18.2(b) continues to apply when yellow tacks back to port.
But that doesn't matter since C2.6 (18.3) applies and it turns off all of 18.2. C2.6(b) applies in this situation and entitles the boat that tacked (yellow) to mark-room.
So you are right that the windward boat (blue) must keep clear and she must also give mark-room to yellow. Blue will not get exonerated under 18.5 if she fails to keep clear.