- Moderate see, Wind Westerly force 3 to 4, good visibility. Boats are all
- Blue, Yellow and Green approach the Port side gate mark, all on Port, overlapped with Green to windward of Yellow, and Yellow to windward of Blue.
- Boats are still overlapped when Green enters the two-lengths Zone.
- Green sails to the Port Gate mark, gybes to starboard, leaves the mark to starboard, then luffs.
- Yellow and Blue also sail to the same mark but leave it to port.
- There’s contact between Green on starboard and Yellow on port.
- Yellow bears away and gybes,
- There’s contact between Yellow and Blue.
- No boat did any turns, but during the hearing Green retires.
What is your decision ?
UPDATE: 24/06/08 18:42
The diagram is correct; It's my fault. I made a mistake in the text: I've corrected it in red.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, mikeposey!
Hi Jos,
ReplyDeleteNice to hear from you at the Kieler Woche, how are you enjoying it?
My interpretation of the protest is below.
The rules that apply:
- I'm assuming the marks aren't qualified as obstructions and the boats aren't required to leave them on one side. Because of that rule 18 doesn't apply for the mark they're approaching.
- At #3 green gybes to starboard tack and acquires right of way on blue and yellow under rule 10. She is therefore required to give blue and yellow room to keep clear under rule 15.
- Green becomes an obstruction to yellow and blue, so rule 18 applies. Blue is required to give yellow room to pass between her and green including room to gybe.
- At #4 yellow tries to keep clear and also gybes to starboard tack. She is still keep clear boat in relation to green, but now under rule 11. Yellow acquires right of way on blue under rule 10 and, normally, has to give her room to keep clear under rule 15. However, yellow was entitled to room to gybe under rule 18. This means there’s a conflict between rule 18 (in part C) and rule 15 (in part B). The preface of part C says that in that case the rules in part C take precendence. Yellow therefore doesn’t have to give room to blue to keep clear.
- At #4 green luffs and, still being the row boat, has to give room to yellow and blue to keep clear under rule 16.
- All boats are subject to rule 14.
Rules broken (I think):
- I'm in doubt if green broke rule 15 at #3, but have a tendency to say no.
- Blue broke rule 18 between #3 and #4.
- Green broke rule 16 at #4.
- Yellow did not keep clear of green and broke rule 11 at #4 but should be exonerated under rule 64.1(b) because green did not give room to keep clear.
- Green and blue both broke rule 14.
Decision:
- Green retired and can not be penalized under rule 44.4(b).
- Blue DSQ
Hallo Jos,
ReplyDeleteWhere can I find the best explanation of the rules regarding courses using gate buoys?
groet, Andrew
Green was entitled to room being required to round the mark on the same side.
ReplyDeleteYellow did not provide the room green would have needed to round and thus is Disqualified.
Green gybed and became right of way boat and was subject to 15.1 and was required to give room to yellow, which it did not do. And was subject to disqualification but as it had retired no further penalty.
Blue exonerated.
I agree with Andrew that the GATE is crucial in this protest.
ReplyDeleteA gate has to be passed between the two marks either rounding the port gate-mark leaving it to port, or rounding the starboard gate-mark leaving it to starboard.
So, Frank & Mike, please consider rule 28.1.
As to the facts: Initially Yellow did give Green enough room, but the latter decided to go to the other side, because she thought she was at the port gate mark....
Hmmz, seeing they all sailed far past the mark I thought they were on their way to the finish :)
ReplyDelete- Green leaves the mark to Starboard [not Port]
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to know if she asked for room to round - in which case she knows it is a Port hand buoy.
She could argue that she is rounding the starboard gate buoy, but using the 'piece of string' tool from Rule 28.1 I feel she has to pass both buoys on the correct side, in this case requiring her to go through the gate.
She is now where she shouldn't be and must keep clear.
I'll have to think more about Yellow and Blue
The rules that apply will depend on whether the diagram is correct or the dialog is correct. The dialog has the green boat rounding to port but the diagram shows it leaving the gate mark to starboard, and yellow and blue are said to be leaving the mark to starboard but are shown to be leavingthe mark to port.
ReplyDeleteThe rules that apply will depend on whether the dialog is correct or the diagarm is correct. They conflict. Diagram has green leaving the mark to starboard, and yellow and blue leavign it to port. The dialog is the reverse.
ReplyDelete@2 G must KC Y, who must KC B (rule 11). G is entitled to mark room (rule 18.2(a)) from both Y and B. At this point, allowing for Y in between them, B is not giving G room (including room to gybe) to round or pass the mark.
ReplyDeleteDSQ B.
@3, G (stbd) is ROW, Y must KC (rule 10), G must give Y room to KC (rule 16). Y must also KC of B (rule 11), B must give Y room to KC of G (an obstruction) (rule 18) and G MUST ALSO GIVE Y ROOM TO KC OF B (an obstruction) (rule 18).
@3.5, narrative says contact, G and Y, while Y is still on port.
G is changing course: G breaks rule 16. G is converging on B, at less than half a boat length, with Y in the middle. G is not giving Y room to KC B. G breaks rule 18.
G cannot be DSQ because she has RET
There is contact, so Y breaks rule 14. Narrative does not say whether there is damage or injury: assume no damage or injury, so G cannot be penalised under rule 14.
Y breaks rule 10 and rule 14, but is compelled to break those rules by G breaking rules 16 and 18 so she shall be exonerated (rule 64.1).
@4, Y has gybed. G is ROW, Y must KC of G (rule 11). G and Y are ROW, B must KC (rule 10). Y must initially give B room to KC (rule 15, and if Y changes course after her boom crosses the centreline, she must give B room to KC (rule 16)
Contact Y and B. B does not KC of Y. B breaks rule 10. Y does not give B room to KC. Y breaks rules 15 and/or 16. Both boats break rule 14.
B is compelled to break rule 10 by Y breaking rules 15/16. Exonerate B. Y is compelled to break rules 15/16 by G breaking rules 16 and 18: exonerate Y.
I do not think that rule 28.1 affects the rights of way.
ReplyDeleteNone of the applicable part-2 rules depend on Green sailing her proper course. If Green had followed rule 16 and given Yellow time to keep clear, Green could have then corrected her error to comply with rule 28.1. (Maybe Yellow would then protest under 22.2, but Green should then be cleared by the evidence indicating Green was confused about the course, not purposefully interfering.)
So the first response by Frank seems correct to me.
I disagree only about Blue breaking rule 18; Yellow's gybe was not normal for rounding the mark, so Blue did not need to anticipate the gybe under rule 18, only react to it under rule 14.
@2 G must keep clear of Y and B (rule 11), but is entitled to room to round or pass from both Y and B and will remain entitled until they have passed (rule 18.2(b)). Room includes room for G to gybe into position to round the mark to Port and gybe back again (rule 18 preamble). At this point (8mR boats, going 8kts, poor manoeuvrability, 6 sec until the mark) unless B and Y bear away and open the gap to the mark, starting now, they will not be giving G room (see MR Call Ump 10)).
ReplyDelete@2.5 B and Y are not giving G room to round or pass. B and Y break rule 18. Y cannot give G room because B is not giving room. Y is compelled to break rule 18 as a consequence of B breaking rule 18.
DSQ B, Exonerate Y (rule 64.1(b))
@3, B and Y must KC of G (rule 10), G must initially give Y room to KC (rule 15). Y must KC of B (rule 11). B must give Y room to KC of G (obstruction, ROW boat on stbd, rule 18). ALSO, G MUST GIVE Y ROOM TO KC OF B (obstruction, ROW boat to leeward, rule 18)
@3.5 (by the narrative) Contact, G and Y. By diagram, between 3 and 4 G is changing course, so must give Y room to KC (rule 16), and still give Y room to KC of B (rule 18). If there is no damage or injury, then neither Y or G can be penalised for breaking rule 14 (rule 14(b)). B is still not giving Y room to KC of G (rule 18).
G breaks rules 14, 16 and 18.
Y breaks rules 10, and 14
B breaks rule 18
Y is compelled to break rules 10 and 14 as a consequence of B breaking rule 18 and as a consequence of G breaking rules 16 and 18.
Exonerate Y (rule 64.1(b)
DSQ B
DSQ G
See assumption above that there was no damage or injury in the contact. G retirement is thus NOT her 'penalty' under rule 44.1 therefore she is NOT protected by rule 44.4(b) and must be DSQ (rule 64.1(a)
Have I got this right?
@4 Y has gybed onto stbd, B must KC of Y and B (rule 10), Y must initially give B room to KC. Y must KC of G (rule 11), G must give Y room to allow B room to KC of Y (rule 18, definition of obstruction includes a boat entitled to room).
@ 5 contact B and Y. Obligations as at 4, except that now (by diagram) Y is changing course towards B. Y must give B room to KC (rule 16).
B does not KC of Y.
Y does not give B room to KC
G does not allow Y room to give B room to KC and avoid contact.
Y is compelled to break rules 15 or 16 and 14 as a consequence of G breaking rule 18
Exonerate Y (rule 64.1(b)
DSQ B
DSQ G
Just to highlight the interesting bits:
ReplyDelete@3, as well as B having to give Y room to KC of G (obstruction, ROW boat on stbd, rule 18). ALSO, G MUST GIVE Y ROOM TO KC OF B (obstruction, ROW boat to leeward, rule 18). So in the 'sandwich' situation, the middle boat is entitled to room from EACH of the outside boats to meet the middle boat's obligations.
Assuming that there was no damage or injury in the contact between G and Y. G's retirement is thus NOT her 'penalty' under rule 44.1 therefore she is NOT protected by rule 44.4(b) and must be DSQ (rule 64.1(a)
Have I got this right?
Brass
Unsaid in the narrative, but presumed that this is a gate through which the boats must pass. Therefore Rule 18 applies to boats rounding either of the marks but not both. All boats are approaching the right gate mark for the rounding. Green entitled to room from yellow subject to 18.2(e) - that is if yellow is unable to give room, no room is owed; yellow entitled to room from blue. Yellow had no room to give to green and therefore 18.2(a) and (b) do not apply; blue failed to gie room to yellow and must be DSQ'd.
ReplyDeleteGreen gybed to stbd. and acquired ROW over yellow and blue. Yellow cannot give room to green because of blue and may perhaps be exonerated of this rule 10 violation because of blue's rule 18 violation. Blue again is DSQ'd under rule 10. Yellow fails to gybe to round the mark and faces a protest from blue under rule 18.4 but again may be exonerated because of Blue's earlier and continuing violation of rule 18.
Blue began the mess and continued to cause the ultimate collisions. Green has problems under rule 14 but not enough information here to determine nature of damage caused by collision.
Thanks for the puzzle - enjoy the blog - having fun at Kiel?
Cheers,
Wasabi
Here is what we were able to conclude from the diagram and highlights. I have used B = Blue
ReplyDeleteY = Yellow and G = Green
Facts
B, Y and G are on port tack approaching the port side gate mark
Y is overlapped and windward of B, G is overlapped and windward of Y
G enters the 2 length zone overlapped with Y and B
As G passes the mark to starboard, she gybes to starboard
B and Y sail to the mark but pass it to port
G slowly changes course to windward
Y changes course trying to avoid contact with G resulting in her gybing to starboard
Y contacts G with no damages (assumption)
B changes course , trying to avoid contact with Y resulting in her gybing to starboard
B makes contact with Y with no damage (assumption)
No boat takes a two turn penalty
g does not pass between gate marks
G request to retire
Conclusion
G right of way boat did not give Y room to keep clear , when she changed course, breaking rule 16.1
B on port tack did not keep clear of Y on starboard tack breaking rule 10
It was not reasonable possible for Y to avoid contact with B, not breaking rule 14
Decision
G is DSQ
B is DSQ
Comments
Robert
To All: Thank you for commenting an participating in this discussion.
ReplyDeleteI've waited a bit to let everybody participate.
In this protest we concluded:
Initially Green was given enough room by Yellow to round inside.
Green never sailed that course, rounded the mark from the other side because she thought she was at the starboard gate mark.
Green broke rule 28.1
Green became row boat when she gybed, but then - in changing course, did not give Yellow enough room to keep clear, who in turn could not keep clear of Blue, both are exonerated because of Green's violation of 16.1
Green RAF - no DSQ