Saturday, 5 July 2008

Finishing Third?

In one of the qualification races the fleet is split into two groups, which start with a five minute interval. At the finish of the first race a boat in the first group hits the "pin-end"-mark of the finish line and drags it behind it's rudder some 30 - 40 meters downwind, before she manages to get it released.

The RO tells the mark boat to get the finish mark back to it's original position, as soon as group one are all finished and before group two get too close. The mark boat only partly manages this and the mark is dragged back a good twenty meters. The first three boats of group two are about one hundred meters from the finish, with two boats at the committee-boat side and one at the left side.

The first one (Yellow) finishes at the committee boat side and 40 seconds later the second (Blue), finishes also at the boat side. The third (Green), crossing the line at the pin-end side, another 10 seconds later.

Green request redress, claiming she would have finished second if the mark was put left in it's position. She states on her request form that she specifically sailed to that end of the finish line to accomplish this

As usual, please write a conclusions and rules that apply, and give us a decision


  1. According to the diagram, the change of the pin-end mark did not bring a disadvantage to Green. Because the new finishing mark in Position 1 is nearer than the original position for the finishing mark for Green.
    There was an improper action by the race committee. But since Green’s score has not been made significantly worse, her request is not based on any claim under rule 62.1(a).
    The request for redress is not given.

  2. The rule (33) says: When a mark is out of position, the rc shall, if possible, replace it in its correct position. Well, the fact that the mark boat did not manage this as the boats were to close, shows it was not possible. So, the rc should have left de mark out of position: conclusion improper action. When there is a discussion whether green is harmed by the improper action of the rc: the rc should give the boat the advantage of the doubt. The rc is there to serve the competitors and must forget the wish to be right. In no circumstance a boat may be the victim of a wrong action or a wrong consideration of the rc. Decision: redress.

  3. Dear apel;
    I think too that there was an improper action by the race committee and Green is the innocent victim of it.
    If the protest committee decide to give redress, will Green take a point which is lower either a third place or a place based on the position of the last mark under rule A11(c)? And other boat's positions are not adjusted?

  4. I have questions about [ the improper action of the race committee]. Is it because they did not have enough time to move the mark back, or because they did not get it all the way back to the original position? If green had committed to sail the dragged to position before it was moved, then she has a valid request. Otherwise, I don't think she was hurt by the action. She was third in position 1 and finished third.


  5. Hallo Sen,

    There are three possibilities, I mentioned one: when there is a discussion whether Green is harmed by the improper action of the rc and she’ll have the benefit of the doubt. When in this the rc gives redress, it will be points of the second finisher. What to do with Blue now? Well, as there is doubt about the finish position of Green, a logical consequence is that you cannot say Blue finished third. So Blue keeps her points for a second place and there is no boat with third place points.
    An other possibility is the rc decides Green is not effected by the action of the rc. Result: no change of points. The third possibility is that the rc is sure that Green should have finished second. In that case Blue should not have finished second but third. Blue will have points for a third finish place. I hope my sort of English is understandable.

  6. Dear Apel;
    The arrangement data by Pel’s opinion is as follows;
    Story 1 : Both Blue and Green 2nd place.
    Story 2 : Blue 2nd place, Green 3rd place.
    Story 3 : Blue 3rd place, Green 2nd place.

    1. Story 3 is not quite possible.
    Because Blue has surely finished at 2nd place and been scored.
    2. Both Story 2 and Story 3 sound very convincing.
    At the first, Blue must be scored 2nd place.
    At the second, as for Green’s score, the protest committee has to find the ground to be scored Green 3rd or other place.
    3. My final opinion is;
    Green will take a point which is lower, 3rd place or the place based on the position of the last mark under rule A11(c). Therefore Green’s score is not worse than 3rd place, that is, 1st, 2nd or 3rd. And other boat's positions must not be adjusted.
    Have fun!

  7. There are two alternatives, requiring more evidence (wind and sea conditions etc) to enable the PC to decide whether the RC did everything possible to comply with rule 34.

    Possibility 1 - PC decides that RC did everything possible

    Conclusion: RC did all that was possible to comply with rule 34. There was no improper action by the RC.

    Decision: Redress not given.

    Rules 34, 62.1(a)

    Possibility 2 - PC decides that RC did NOT do everything possible (could have flown a blue flag on the mark boat, mark boat was inept, etc)

    Conclusion: RC did not do all that was possible to replace or substitute the moved mark in accordance with rule 34.

    Green's score has been made worse by this improper action of the RC.

    Relying on the diagram (presumably the PC's endorsed diagram), at Posn 2, Y was ahead of G relative to the line from the RC boat to the pin in its fully displaced position, and Y had finished. Y beats G no matter where the FL is. B is well behind G.

    Redress is granted as follows: G to be scored points for second place. Other boats' scores to remain unchanged.

    Rules 34, 62.1(a) 64.2, A10(c), A 6.2


  8. I support brass's opinion.
    We have to leave the rest to the PC on the spot.


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