Sunday, 4 May 2008

Kleine Sneekweek 2008 Scoring

Up until now it has been a very quit event - at least from the PC's point of view. Only three protest so far.

Around ascension day and the following weekend my club always organizes a four day event. With Beaufort 5 on Thursday, 2 on Friday and 0-1 on Saturday the wind has let the RC do three of the four planned races. Today with Beaufort 2, the RC has planned to do the fifth race this morning and then directly afterwards do the postponed race four of yesterday.

Two competitors in the Pampus- class have exactly the same result
Pampus 900:
R1 - 1, R2 - 7, R3 - 2, R4 - 3, R5 - 1, total: 14p excluding a 7th = 7p
Pampus 980:
R1 - 7, R2 - 2, R3 - 1, R4 - 1, R5 - 3, total: 14p excluding a 7th = 7p
According to Rule A8.2 the scorer awards the first prize to Pampus 900 and second prize to Pampus 980

You are a member of my PC and we receive a request for redress from Pampus 980, claiming that the PC has made an error in scoring. The last race was race 4 (sailed this afternoon after race 5). And that Pampus 980 should be awarded first prize.

Write the facts found, conclusion, rules applicable and a decision.

Update 18:45 hours; just returned home from the event. When I wrote this post this morning, it was still hypothetical. But after racing today the first two Ynglings faced exactly this problem and we got a request for redress from the second placed boat. Since we already discussed this dilemma beforehand, we quickly came to a decision. I'm however not yet going to tell you what we decided, first I want to hear what you make of this......


  1. A question. What did the SIs say about when abandoned races were to be sailed and what did the notice putting race 4 to the end of the regatta say?


  2. Nothing in the SIs
    Racing was abandoned with AP over A
    The Notice #6, published at 08:30 AM, said that Race 4 would be sailed directly after Race 5.

  3. Just a shot...

    Q&A 07-007 says that the race numbering should be done in a way that is easiest to comprehend for competitors, media and public.

    Race 4 is to be sailed at a later time due to postponment.

    As I see it, Race 4 has a "slot" before the Race 5, so the last race, according to scores, is Race 5.

  4. The rule says: ... the best score in the last race in which the tied boats raced ... Not the last race of the program.

  5. On the issue, it seems to me that the jury first have to be sure that the change of schedule was valid. I have not checked but there is a case, perhaps only a GBR one, which says that races take their natural order unless validly changed. Therefore the notice changing the order has to be valid. Therefore the jury must check it.

  6. Jos
    It is not that I have not been paying attention to your blog but busy rewriting decisions from the wayfarer web site and other rule items.

    Here is my thinking on this latest post.
    Rc postpones race 4 on Sat.
    Rc post notice to competitors " Postponed race 4 to be sailed after race 5"
    P900 series results are……
    P980 series results are …….
    SI allowed 1 drop race if 5 races or more were completed
    RC scored P900 first and P980 second in the series

    There was no improper action or omission of the race committee in scoring P980 in second place. RRS A8.2, 62.1(a)

    Redress is denied

    In my logic is the found in A8.2 where it says " they shall be ranked in order of their scores in the last race." There is no discussion or use of the word "sailed".

  7. As "robert" observed, the rule says, "they shall be ranked in order of their scores in the last race." I think in this regatta, the last race was "Race 4", and not Race 5. No matter what you call it, "Race 5" was not the "last race" of the regatta. And in my opinion, it doesn't matter what you call them (e.g., it would not matter if you call the first race "Race 5", then "Race 4" etc....) The last race is the one that ends the regatta, in this case, that was "Race 4."

    I think the reasoning for the rule supports this, which is to permit boats which are tied or close on points to focus on each other in the final race of a regatta. Counting the second to last race ("Race 5") as the "last race" undermines this goal.


  8. We based our decision on why the rule was written this way.

    If in a series two boats have the same score, they can base there tactics on that, but only in the last sailed race. Only then is clear that all other results will tie them.

    Because of the decision of the RC to sail race 4 after race 5, race 4 should be used to award the final standing.

    To prevent this kind of problem, we advised the RC in future to schedule races in order. Sail the abandoned race before the next one, instead of what happened.

  9. Received by E-mail from Mike B:
    Pampus 980 Redress request.

    Races were held in the order 1,2,3,5,4.
    The last race sailed was 4.
    Pampus 900 and 980 had race scores that 8.1 failed to break.
    Nothing in the sailing instructions specified the order of races.
    900 won r5 sailed in the morning
    980 won r4 sailed after r5

    Rules applicable
    8.2 the scores were to be broken by the results of the last race. The last race was race 4 and thus 980 is to be scored first and 900 second.

    What is the last race is a matter of fact, and here the last race sailed was race 4 held over from the day before.

    Note: I do not have my papers here but I believe there was a recent case / interpretation on order of races, where a race committee did not hold one race so as not to invoke the black flag consequences and commenced with the next race number.

    Redress wording omitted

  10. I agree with Anonymous & Mike B
    The rule should be interpreted as 'last SAILED race'

  11. I received a mail from a fellow judge who looked up Appendix A in previous Rule-books ( Thanks Leo Pieter)

    From RRoS '97:
    Races shall be numbered sequentially in the order of completion.

    A2.3 TIES
    When there is a tie in series points between two or more boats, the tie will be broken in favor of the boat with the most first places, or, if the tie remains, the most second places, or lower places if necessary, using only the scores for each boat that count for her series score. When a tie still remains, it will be broken in favor of the boat with the best score in the last race in which the tied boats raced and scored differently, using only the scores for each boat that count for her series score...

    In light of Q&A 2008-001 I think we can put this one to bed.


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