For everybody who is finding their way in the new section C, the presentation gave a schematic flow-chart to find the appropriate rule. When I first started translating this in Dutch to use in a presentation, I discovered there should be an additional question. Rule 19 can be applicable for boats that approach the line to start!
So I revised the flow chart to include that question and here's the result
I'm also including the Dutch translation:
We will no doubt have protest about boats approaching the first line of boats at a starting line from astern. The discussion if the windward boat will be able to give room, might be difficult, but must somehow be resolved. Mike B already predicted a Black flag chaos: RRS 2009-2012; Rule 19 Room to Pass an Obstruction
What do you think? Any comments on the diagrams are welcome.
.
I think problems are caused because the text in the powerpoint presentation is cryptic. The powerpoint presentation diagram is made wholly valid if the words in the first box are amended to read 'Are the boat approaching a starting mark to start'
ReplyDeleteI think that is the preferable amendment.
Nothing depends on whether boats are approaching the line to start: only if they are approaching starting marks.
In your flowchart the 'no' switch arrow from the second box down on the left needs to go all the way round to the top box on the right.
I think it's best to stick with the original diagram which is admirable for its simplicity and compactness, in the rectangular format. It just needs three words changed.
Is the solution to the 'wedge in' problem as follows:
ReplyDelete1. if there is room for W to come up and give room for M to come between L and M, M must give it;
2. if, at the time M becomes overlapped on W there is not room for W to go up and give M room between M and L, then:
* M has no right to room to pass between W and L under rule 19.2(a).
* If M changes course towards W while a further windward boat prevents W coming up, M breaks rule 16.1.
* If M holds a straight course such, while a further windward boat prevents W coming up to keep clear, because it was never possible for W to keep clear, from the instant M transitioned from CASTN keep clear to Leeward ROW, M has not initially given W room to keep clear, and breaks rule 15.
I realise that this may be 'stretching' the 'initially' in rule 15 by a few seconds, but perhaps that is what is needed.
Am I correct that there is a typo in Bass's solution. In lines 1. and 2. three of the M's should be W. As follows
ReplyDelete1. If there is room for W to come up and give room for M to come between L and W, W must give it;
2. If, at the time M becomes overlapped on W there is not room for W to go up and give M room between W and L, then:
* M has no right to room to pass between W and L under rule 19.2(a).
* If M changes course towards W while a further windward boat prevents W coming up, M breaks rule 16.1.
* If M holds a straight course such, while a further windward boat prevents W coming up to keep clear, because it was never possible for W to keep clear, from the instant M transitioned from CASTN keep clear to Leeward ROW, M has not initially given W room to keep clear, and breaks rule 15.
I realize that this may be 'stretching' the 'initially' in rule 15 by a few seconds, but perhaps that is what is needed.
Dear Jos;
ReplyDeleteI always appreciate your great work in LOOK TO WINDWARD.
The flow chart has an immediate effect to understand rules in Section C.
I am reminded the time when I was working as a system engineer. I used to make such a flow chart. We say it is also called a block diagram.
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Well, my sailing pupil sent me a complicated question in rules in Section C and also in this flow.
“Does rule 18 take precedence over rule 19?”
Inside the range of my understanding, there are only two precedence in Section C, which are in case of applying rule 20 (Sec C Preamble), and while passing a continuing obstruction (rule 18.1(d) and 19.2(c)).
“Does an obstruction practically exist in the zone?”
A supposed situation is as follows;
Three not-overlapped boats were sailing on the same tack to the W/W mark. The first boat already reached the zone. After then, when the second boat reached the zone, the third boat was still C/AS of the second boat. The third boat overtook the second boat and overlapped between the first boat and the second boat in the zone. As three boats were still in the zone, the C/AH first boat must be an obstruction to the second and the third boat under the definition Obstruction. If it is right?
“May the third boat ask for room against the second boat under rule 19(a)?”
I am sure rule 18 applies and rule 19 doesn’t apply in this situation, but I cannot give an answer to the precedence.
Very sorry to post such a stupid question.
Sen Yamaoka
Mr. Brass said
ReplyDelete........................
* M has no right to room to pass between W and L under rule 19.2(a).
Why?
If we jump to a conclusion on the basis of just only rule 19, M is L/W of W, then M has R-O-W over W.
And L is an obstruction to M and W.
May M choose to pass an obstruction L on either side under rule 19.2(a)?
Because there is no description that rule 18 takes precedence over rule 19 in the RRS.
Very sorry to post such a stupid opinion.
Sen Yamaoka
I assume this describes a situation where 2 boats overlapped are coming up behind another boat, all on the same tack. They pass to leeward of the boat which was clear ahead.
ReplyDeleteI am uncertain about what happens when the overlap is established with the boat which was clear ahead. Before the overlap, the boat clear ahead, W, is an obstruction to L and M. If they are going to pass to leeward of it, L must give M room. 19.2b. As soon as L or M becomes overlapped with W, W becomes a keep clear boat. Provided W has been given room to keep clear (as she must be), she is no longer an obstruction to both L and M, so rule 19 switches off.
Wag
Sen's question came up at the RYA conference the other weekend. The consensus was that both rules a 18 and 19 apply. The boat in the middle is entitled to room under rule 19 to avoid the obstruction of the inside boat.
ReplyDeleteThe boat on the outside is entitled to Mark Room from the middle boat, which by its presence the middle boat fails to give.
If the outside boat does not give room to middle, it breaks rule 19.
Middle breaks rule 18.
Team racing call H1 does not apply to this situation. It does, though, say that rule 19 applies in the zone and a boat entitled to mark room counts as an obstruction.
Wag
Thanks Anon1, Yes, your substitutions of W are correct.
ReplyDeletethe last * point should also read
* If M holds a straight course such that there will be contact between M and W,
Sen san,
ReplyDeleteHave you not come across the saying 'There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers carelessly typed by Brass?'
Sorry everybody for my carelessness. The original post should have read:
Is the solution to the 'wedge in' problem as follows:
1. If there is room for W to come up and give room for M to come between L and W, W must give it;
2. If, at the time M becomes overlapped on W there is not room for W to go up and give M room between W and L, then:
* M has no right to room to pass between W and L under rule 19.2(b).
* If M changes course towards W while a further windward boat prevents W coming up, M breaks rule 16.1.
* If M holds a straight course such that there will be contact between M and W, while a further windward boat prevents W coming up to keep clear, because it was never possible for W to keep clear, from the instant M transitioned from CASTN keep clear to Leeward ROW, M has not initially given W room to keep clear, and breaks rule 15.
I realize that this may be 'stretching' the 'initially' in rule 15 by a few seconds, but perhaps that is what is needed.
So, what I am saying is that M is not entitled to room to pass between L and W, because under rule 19.2(b), W is not required to give M room when she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.
Wag,
ReplyDeleteThe problem is not the one you describe, which I think you have analysed correctly.
The 'wedge in' problem is when a boat M comes from CASTN and pokes his bow in between two other boats L and W, where room is needed for M to pass between L and W.
Under the old rules L would have been a continuing obstruction, and M would have been the give way boat if there was not room to pass between L and W at the moment the overlap began. (now rule 19.2(c)).
Under the new rules, L, a boat racing, is not a continuing obstruction (definition of obstruction). Hence, if W is able to give room, M is entitled to 'wedge' L and W apart to make room.
Dear Brass san
ReplyDeleteand Wag san;
Thank you very much for your kind reply and polite explanation.
It would be difficult to apply both rules 18 and 19 to such a situation, but your answers have resolved one of my some doubts.
I have just translated your answers into Japanese and forwarded it to my pupil.
Arigatou gozaimasu.