Unlucky seven I would say.
Like I promised yesterday, a seven boat problem at the leeward mark. This was send in by Uli from Germany. This is what he wrote in his first mail:
I answered:
Couldn’t we use 16.1?
As soon as Blue or Purple change course they have go give room to Red to keep clear,
Red cannot keep clear because she has to give mark-room to the inside boats (as do Blue and Purple towards all boats in the Zone.)
But he came back with this:
The only solution I have is that Red and Purple should see this coming. The have to keep clear of their respective Leeward boats, but don't have mark-room. They must however give Mark-room to the inside boats..... They both are failing to keep clear under RRS 11. Red also breaks 19.2(b), she could slow down in position 1. Dark Blue will infringe 14 by not avoiding contact, but if there's no damage...
Please give Uli and me your views.
Like I promised yesterday, a seven boat problem at the leeward mark. This was send in by Uli from Germany. This is what he wrote in his first mail:
"red" , "purple" and "blue" are not in the zone. All seven boats are a long time overlapped and required to leave the mark on port and there are only few centimetres between all of the boats in position 2 and contact without damage between "red" , "purple" and "blue".
Rule 11 applies between them. What about Rule 18 between "red" , "purple" and "blue" because they are not in the zone? I think that is a hole in the rule - done by cancelling the words "giving mark room" out of the definition obstruction.
I answered:
Couldn’t we use 16.1?
As soon as Blue or Purple change course they have go give room to Red to keep clear,
Red cannot keep clear because she has to give mark-room to the inside boats (as do Blue and Purple towards all boats in the Zone.)
But he came back with this:
In the following situation 16.1 is not applicable:
The only solution I have is that Red and Purple should see this coming. The have to keep clear of their respective Leeward boats, but don't have mark-room. They must however give Mark-room to the inside boats..... They both are failing to keep clear under RRS 11. Red also breaks 19.2(b), she could slow down in position 1. Dark Blue will infringe 14 by not avoiding contact, but if there's no damage...
Please give Uli and me your views.
This is how I would attempt to sort this out:
ReplyDeleteRule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
When Yellow reaches the zone:
- rule 18 applies to all the boats;
- rule 18.2(b) applies in that all the boats overlapped Yellow must give her mark room.
- until Green and Blue reach the zone the boats
overlapped on the outside of them must give mark room under 18.2(a). When they reach the zone 18.2(b) applies;
- Red is overlapped inside Purple and Blue when rule 18 applies to all three. As Red is not in the zone rule 18.2(b) does not apply but 18.2(a) does. Purple and Blue must give Red mark room, which includes room to give mark-room to all boats inside (see TR Call E9).
Might be worth a Q&A and a TR Rapid Response Call as it is a typical TR situation.
Gordon
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I agree that your solution is as it SHOULD work.
DeleteUnfortunately the rules states that rule 18 applies between boats when one of them is in the zone. The inside boats may be inside but Red, Purple and Blue are not.
They may have an obligation to Light Blue, Green and the Yellow boats but not toward each other under rule 18. None of them is in the zone.
Case 114, question 1:
ReplyDelete***
Assumed Facts for Question 1
A, B and C are overlapped and on the same tack when the first of them
reaches the zone of a mark. A is on the outside, C is on the inside and B is
between them.
Question 1
Does rule 18.2 require A to give enough space to B to enable B to give
mark-room to C?
Answer 1
Yes. B must give mark-room to C, and A must give mark-room to B. The
definition Mark-Room uses the defined term ‘room’, and room includes
space to manoeuvre in a seamanlike way. The space B needs to manoeuvre
in a seamanlike way includes the space she needs to comply with her
obligations to C. Therefore, rule 18.2 requires A to give B sufficient space
for B to give C mark-room.
***
Natural extension by me:
***
Modified assumed Facts for Question 1
A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are overlapped and on the same tack when the first of them
reaches the zone of a mark. A is on the outside, G is on the inside and B-F are in that order between them.
Modified question 1
Does rule 18.2 require A to give enough space to B to enable B to give enough space to C to enable C to give enough space to D to enable D to give enough space to E to enable E to give enough space to F to enable F to give mark-room to G?
Modified answer 1
Yes. F must give mark-room to G, E must give mark-room to F, D must give mark-room to E, C must give mark-room to D, C must give mark-room to B, and A must give mark-room to B. The definition Mark-Room uses the defined term ‘room’, and room includes space to manoeuvre in a seamanlike way. The space B needs to manoeuvre in a seamanlike way includes the space she needs to comply with her obligations to C. The space C needs to manoeuvre in a seamanlike way includes the space she needs to comply with her obligations to D, and so on. Therefore, rule 18.2 requires A to give B sufficient space for B to give C sufficient space for C to give D sufficient space for D to give E sufficient space for E to give F sufficient space for F to give G mark-room.
***
In short, the way I read case 114 is: since overlap ties A-C, 18.2 applies to all of them when the first of them enters the zone. Since there is no mention about whether B or C are in the zone, it naturally (and correctly, in my opinion) extends if we substitute A-G for A-C.
So in this situation, I would say Blue (A) breaks 18.2 against Purple (B). Purple breaks 18.2 against Red (C), and if there was contact there as well, Red (C) breaks 18.2 against light blue (D). B and C break also 11 against their respective leeward boats. B and C are exonerated under 64.1(c) for breaking 11, and may be exonerated for breaking 18.2 against their respective inside boats if the PC finds that they were compelled to break that rule because of the adjacent outside boat breaking it in turn against them.
Phew. I think I hate you Uli. :) Kidding.
The difference with Case 114 is that in a three boat situation rule 18 is the rule governing the rights and obligations. Even if C is still outside the zone. That is because A& B are in.
DeleteIn Uli's situation we have three boats who are clearly NOT in the zone. They must give room to all boats inside having mark-room, but toward each other there is no such obligation.
Close - as they say - but no CIGAR! Imho
Why do you say that A&B are in the zone in case 114? The only relevant fact (and the only one mentioned) in case 114 is that the boats are overlapped when the first one reaches the zone. There is no mention about whether A&B (or for that matter C) are in the zone. Can you find it?
DeleteYou are partly right. One of them is in the ZONE - otherwise he hasn't reached the zone yet.
DeleteBut with three boats it is more than likely that at least two of them are in and maybe one is out...
Sure, but my point is that the case does not go into the details of who is in the zone or not, because as soon as the first one reaches the zone, the string of overlapped boats are "tied" by rule 18. I can try to use also rule 18 explicitly:
Delete18.1: "Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone."
Are boats A, B, C, D, E, F, and G required to leave the mark on the same side? Yes. Is at least one of them in the zone? Yes. CHECK. Rule 18 applies between boats A, B, C, D, E, F, and G.
18.2(a): "When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies."
Are boats A, B, C, D, E, F, and G overlapped? Yes. Definition of Overlap: "...they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both."
Thus, A must give mark-room to B,C,D,E,F,G; B must give mark-room to C,D,E,F,G; etc.
Now, I guess the reason why one can get caught up on some boats not being in the zone is if one reads rule 18 as only applying to a pair of boats at a time. But in no place does it state that rule 18 applies only in pairs. And the whole point of case 114, in my opinion, is to make it clear that it does NOT apply exclusively to pairs of boats, but to any number of them. I guess one could suggest ISAF to change "inside boat" to "inside boat(s)" and do that everywhere in rule 18, but that's going a bit overboard isn't it?
Rule 18 is very carefully worded. It applies between BOATS when at LEAST one of them is in the zone.
ReplyDeleteOnce Yellow enters the zone (at least one boat is in the zone) then rule 18 applies to all the boats involved.
Rule 18.2(a) applies when:
- rule 18 applies
- boats are overlapped.
Once rule 18 applies to a group of boats there is nothing in Rule 18.2(a)that requires a boat overlapped inside another boat to be in the zone as long as rule 18 applies to both.
Because rule 18 applies to all the boats involved rule 18.2(a) requires the two boats overlapped outside Red are required to give Red mark room, which includes room to give mark-room to all the boats inside Red.
Gordon
@Gordon & Latindane,
ReplyDeleteYou keep insisting that Rule 18 applies to all boats. In my view that is only partly true.
Let me ask you this:
If the Red, Purple and Blue boat were not overlapped with the other four, but a separate group behind the front four, they would have to give mark-room to those front four, agreed?
But rule 18 would not yet apply between them, because none of them is in the zone (yet).
The fact that in the seven boat situation those three all have an overlap with inside boats already in the zone, does not switch rule 18 on, between those three.
Of course they have to give mark-room to the inside boats (LB,G & Y&Y), but Blue does not have to give mark-room to Purple, and Purple does not have to give mark-room to Red.
If your statement were correct, Rule 18 would apply to ALL in the regatta boats as soon as one boat is in the zone..... That cannot be correct.
If it's partly true, that means there is something false about it... what part is false?
DeleteLet me try to picture your alternative scenario. If Red, Purple, and Blue are clear astern of the other four, then Red and Purple are bound by 11. They can keep clear of leeward and luff, since Red will not contact light blue, nor will she be forced to break 18.2 against her. As soon as Red enters the zone, we're back where we started (red may need to take a long way around... if at any point Red or Purple become overlapped to one of the other inside boats in the zone, 18.2(a) ties them all together). Moreover, since the inside boats are clear ahead, they are an obstruction to Red, Purple, and Blue, so Blue must leave room for Purple and Red to pass between them under rule 19, and since Blue is choosing to pass the obstruction to leeward whether or not they themselves are in the zone, this means Blue again is the culprit.
So of course it does not apply to ALL the boats no matter what. But if all the boats in the regatta are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, then yes, 18 will apply to ALL boats. Isn't that the whole point about the definition of overlap?? If there is a way for a boat to break the overlap and do something else in a seamanlike way in order to both comply with her obligations under rule 18 to those boats that are inside the zone (which includes not forcing other "intermediate" boats into breaking rule 18 against those boats), and at the same time keep clear of a ROW boat, then they should do so.
This is fascinating - thanks.
ReplyDeleteHmm.
I was already wondering about the exact meaning of the phrase "Rule 18 applies between boats". Is the meaning of "applies between boats" the same as "applies amongst any number of boats"? Or is it intended to refer only to each possible pair of boats?
I am surprised to find at Dictionary.com one of the definitions of "between" as: "among: 'sharing the responsibilities between the five of us' ". So it seems that "between" CAN refer to any number of boats.
So Latindane does make a very interesting point. Where in the rules does it tell us to apply rule 18 only to each possible pair of boats?
In some situations it makes sense to look at each pair of boats (see Case 59), but why all situations?
If Red Purple and Blue were not overlapped with the other four they would have to give mark room to the 4 under rule 18.2(b). This obligation would start as each boat of the 4 enters the zone. Rule 18.2(b)refers to specifically to a particular boat (she) being clear ahead when she enters the zone. Note that although Red, Purple and Blue are not in the zone rule 18 applies as soon as 1 boat enters the zone!
ReplyDeleteThe key point in this case is that there is a continuous chain of obligations under rule 18.2(a)and (b).
When Yellow enters the zone rule 18 applies and all boats overlapped outside her are required to give mark room under 18.2(b).
18.2(b) does not apply between any two boats of which one has yet to enter the zone, for example Red and Purple. However, the requirements for applying 18.2(a) are met:
- rule 18 applies
- boats are overlapped.
Rule 18 applies because boats are required to leave the mark on the same side and at least one of them (Yellow in the first instance)is in the zone.
As 18.2(a) applies the outside boats, Purple and Blue must give mark-room to Red, which includes room to give mark room to the boats inside.
If one of the two boats enters the zone then the obligation, under 18.2(a), of the outside boat to give mark room, is "frozen" by 18.2(b) and the entitlement to mark room cannot be lost (unless the second sentence of 18.2(c) applies.
...................................................................
When one boat enters the zone, rule 18 switches on for those boats that are required to leave the mark on the same side - that is those boats sailing towards the mark on the same leg.
In most cases this has little or no effect as boats outside the zone do not usually require room to sail to the mark that conflicts with their obligations under Part 2 sections A or B. A boat that enters the zone 100 metres ahead is entitled to mark room under 18.2(b) but that is of no concern to the boat clear astern(except in team racing where the boat ahead might sit and wait).
However, in this case the switching on of rule 18 does have an effect because rule 18.2(a) applies and Red cannot sail directly to the mark because she has an obligation to give mark room to the boats inside her. Red has an obligation to the boats inside her that prevents her from meeting her obligations (under Part 2 sections A and B) to the ROW boats outside her.
Gordon
Gordon
I do agree with Gordon, I see rule 18 as applying, it is a question of what is "boats" in 18.1. I can read this as all boats.
ReplyDeleteSome of the questions are answered by Q+A 2010-001 where basically room is described and the Team Racing Call is referred to.
In your comment above the boats in front would be obstructions as the three approach so 19 applies and the comments in the Q+A apply.
Why when they become overlapped outside does 18.2(a) not apply?
18 did apply to your group behind and in front, and 18(a) appplies once there is an overlap but between the outside boats 18.2.b cannot apply so we are left with 18.2.a.
Between the outside boats 18.2.b only applies in one enters the zone.
If the overlap is brolen the rights etc change as 18.2.a is off.
Why complicate what should be simple!
Mike B
Josh,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gordon,
Please support your opinion by a rule number.
18.1 applies
18.2(a) aplies
Please tell me which rule/s switch off them?
regards: Zsolt
Right, this is getting complicated. I'll will write a post with pictures to illustrate what I mean and why I think rule 18 is not applicable between the three boats outside the zone.
ReplyDeleteI'm currently preparing two rules presentations for tomorrow evening and Saturday so, please be patient, I can't do it straight away.
Hopefully on Sunday.
Good luck with the presentations and your arguments on rule 18
ReplyDeleteGordon
I know I'm probably overdoing this - have already 200+ slides ready - but want to be able to handle any question...
DeleteThanks G.
Maybe it makes sense to take it one situation at a time, and agree on that one, before going into further hypothetical alternatives...
ReplyDeleteIn order to illustrate what the rights and obligations in this one are, I want to go to the other one. I'll make it clear on Sunday, okay?
DeleteSeveral people mentioned rule 19. I want to point out that due to a change in the definition “Obstruction” that took effect Jan 2010, I don’t believe that 19 applies.
ReplyDeleteThe words in brackets were removed:
“...a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her, [give her room or mark-room] or, if rule 22 applies, avoid her...”
From: sailing.org/raceofficials/30291.php (Nov 09):
“The definition Obstruction will be changed so that a boat racing will no longer be an obstruction to other boats that are required to give her room or mark-room. This change will simplify the analysis of some situations near a mark in which both rules 18 and 19 apply, and it will not otherwise change the ‘game’.”
Hi Goomer, I also noted that the inside boats in the diagram are not obstructions.
DeleteRule 19 is applicable to Jos's alternative scenario were Red, Purple, and Blue are clear astern of the boats in the zone. In that case, those boats have right to mark-room AND are obstructions to R, P, and B as clear-ahead boats.
Right, I've added Part two of the Seven Samurai. See Sunday...
ReplyDeleteHi Jos,
ReplyDeleteR18.2(b) applies to all "Overlapped" outside boats at the moment the 1st overlapped boat reaches the zone, according to R18.2.b.
R18.2(b) does not apply to all boats on the course. Just to the ones overlapped outside of Yellow when she reaches the zone.