In a match race, in the prestart a boat gets two separate penalties.
Q1:
Just before the starting signal, there is a contact between boats and umpires decide that it should be a twin penalty. Is this the third penalty and a base for the black flag (under C7.3(f)) or not?
Q2:
Just seconds after the starting signal, a boat with two penalties gets a red flag penalty. Same question: is this the third penalty and a base for the black flag (under C7.3(f)) or not?
There was a lively discussion about it recently, by non-umpires but judges and I couldnt believe how many opinions were produced in a short matter of time. :)
Regards from Slovenia, Andraz
I had to think about these questions Andraz, and still am not sure. In my opinion, for the situation in the first question, a black flag is not warranted. RRS C7.2(e) takes precedent over RRS C7.2(f), so with a twin penalty, one is canceled immediately and the boat still has only two outstanding penalties of which one must be taken directly after starting.
In the second situation I think the black flag is appropriate, provided that the infringement is not for C2.8
In that case the second of the two outstanding penalties has been taken, but the boat gets an additional penalty (with or without red) for not keeping clear while taking a penalty.
If the (third) red flag penalty is for something else, the total number of penalties becomes three and a black flag should be given.
I'm however open for other opinions. Please don't hesitate to comment.
Thank you Jos, my way of thinking is the same.
ReplyDeleteA twin penalty, in my opinion, is the same as a green penalty in effect, but with a different message. There is no third outstanding penaly.
In the case of a red flag penalty, with two outstanding penalties (which means no penalty was taken yet, which excludes C2.8), it is a normal penalty, with a red flag addition. And this makes it a third outstanding penalty.
But, if a boat gets a penalty for C2.8 during taking the penalty, does she really have only one outstanding penalty at the end plus a new one? For a moment there, I'd say that she got a third penalty before she has completely taken the second one. The umpires decided that she broke a rule when she still had two penalties.
Another "case" was a centre of the discussion in the meantime.
Yellow boat has an outstanding penalty and gets in a close duel near the mark. The action is really fast and intense, there goes up a first Y flag, a second and a third, for three different situations (no twin penalty).
Umpires agree that the responses are: penalty for yellow, penalty for yellow, penalty for blue, and they should signal them accordingly, even though there was a delay because of the action observed.
All in all, there is a point in time, when yellow boat has three penalties. I'd say, it's a black for her, regardless of the last penalty for blue.
I agree with Andraz in all the three cases
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